The Limos.com Forum Has Moved!!!

I just read an article in Transportation Leader, the offical publication of the TLPA By Neil Weiss reguarding overloading Limousines. As any one who has been in the Limo business for any length of time knows, it is all about GVW Gross vehicle weight. I have had to turn down runs just because clients wanted to stuff 10 people into my 8 passenger Limousine. Beleive me with the volume of calls I get, that is a tough call to make. In reading the article, I am not here to criticize Mr. Weiss, I just think he should had gon on a little further. How about the Navigator who some people like to stretch out as long as a Bowling alley and try to stuff 16 to 18 people in it. Fords own specification states that the Pay load capacity of the Navigator with 4 wheel drive is 1456 lbs with 2 wheel drive 1540. The stretch alone exceeds this, then you stuff in 16 people at 150# each for another 2400 lbs. add to that the curb weight of nearly 6000#, it's a wonder you can steer it, let alone stop it.
You have over 10,000 # on a vehicle designed for a gross of 7500. No wonder NYC has banned them from their streets.

It is just my opinion but what ever happened to the good old days when a Limousine was a Limousine and not a an overloaded off road vehicle. I think it's time we as an industry try to restore a little dignity to a Limousine. I support the Cadillac and the Town Car and the QVM/CMC programs.

David E. Merrill

Manufacturers who use "rules of thumb" and don't seem to understand that loading a span is a proportional equation, not a linear one, scare the crap out of me.

A limo is, in its most basic form, a bridge. The longer it is, the stronger it has to be. There is a point where the stretch weighs more than what the stretch can hold, which is why bridges like the Golden Gate don't look like a typical freeway overpass, only longer. Saying that if a 100" stretch can hold 2700lbs, so a 200" can hold 5400lbs is stupidity of the highest order. That line of thought goes to a limo, 100 miles long, carrying everyone in Manhattan, but only supported at either end.

I just looked up the specifications on an H2. GVWR 8600 lbs. Same as Excursion. Curb weight 6400 lbs. Using Craftsmans rule of thumb of 27 lbs per inch, a 220 inch stretch would be 5940, ad that to 6400 curb weight 12,340 lbs. GVWR 8600, 3,740 over. The regular Hummer was 10,300 GVWR not quite as bad.

David E. Merrill

David: I took your advice and called Craftsman. Here is what I got. The rule of thumb is the modification runs 27 lbs per inch including average passengers. this means that a 180" stretch will add 4860 to the base Excursion. Fords own specifications are Curb weight of base vehicle 6650 lbs. ad these together, 11,510 lbs. Fords specifications GVWR for base Excursion 8600 lbs. Looks like 2,910 lbs. over weight to me. Or another way to look at it, 133.8 % over GVWR.

I don't know about your area but where I live the people tend to eat well. So a full load of passengers could far exceed this number.

Craftsman did tell me that they are mostly doing H2s now. Could it be they know something we don't.

David E. Merrill

Possibly you don't want to know. If it's that important, why don't you call them? They have a toll free number. Most companies, wrongly, use their websites as brochures only. They really can't use the net for $100,000+ purchases, so email tends to be looked at as though a windowshopper. What was the wording of your email, did it sound like you needed to know or was it more like "What's the GVW of your H2 stretch? Kay? Thx."

Possibly they don't want me to know.

David E. Merrill

You'll be waiting a loooong time for email response from the coachbuilders. The one who ever did respond to me was like 90 days later....

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Originally posted by David Merrill:
I have E-mailed Craftsman to get the payload capacity and GVWR on some of their non QVM vehicles. I am still waiting for a reply.

David E. Merrill

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I have E-mailed Craftsman to get the payload capacity and GVWR on some of their non QVM vehicles. I am still waiting for a reply.

David E. Merrill

WADE has told you the ways and means. He has been around longer than the vast majority of coachbuilders and operators. You may wish to pay closer attention to Mr. Randolph.

Dean Schuler

Yes I do understand that the 14 passenger 140" excursions and Navigators are now QVM and are insurable because Ford did put the Meat into the base vehicle. But what about the the longer ones that don't have the Meat in them to handle the job. Thats the ones I am talking about.

David E. Merrill

quote:

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Originally posted by David Merrill:
Wade: I am sure that the actual structure of the vehicle probably meets or exceeds federal standards. The problem I have is with the base vehicle. Heres another what if but What if you had 16 people in your long car and a lower control arm brakes. A sharp Lawyer finds the vehicle was way over GVW, the control arm broke because of being over stressed by the weight. Will Ford stand behind it? No, they told you that in their opinion it was unsafe to over load the vehicle. Will Craftsman stand behind you? No, they will say thats not my part. Will your insurance company stand behind you? Up to the limits of your liability.

I just had a conversation with a Gentleman at Lancer. He told me that Lancer will not insure them. I asked him would it be a good investment to purchase a non QVM car? He told me there a still some insurance companies out there that will insure them but they are getting scarce. He would not advise it.

I would sure hate to invest 80k into something I can't insure.

Just my opinion, thanks for listening

David E. Merrill

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Craftsmen will stand behind it and they do have product liability insurance. And I have had no trouble getting my Craftsmen 140" insured. And, Ford is now certifying them to carry 15 passengers.

Wade Randolph

Wade: I am sure that the actual structure of the vehicle probably meets or exceeds federal standards. The problem I have is with the base vehicle. Heres another what if but What if you had 16 people in your long car and a lower control arm brakes. A sharp Lawyer finds the vehicle was way over GVW, the control arm broke because of being over stressed by the weight. Will Ford stand behind it? No, they told you that in their opinion it was unsafe to over load the vehicle. Will Craftsman stand behind you? No, they will say thats not my part. Will your insurance company stand behind you? Up to the limits of your liability.

I just had a conversation with a Gentleman at Lancer. He told me that Lancer will not insure them. I asked him would it be a good investment to purchase a non QVM car? He told me there a still some insurance companies out there that will insure them but they are getting scarce. He would not advise it.

I would sure hate to invest 80k into something I can't insure.

Just my opinion, thanks for listening

David E. Merrill

quote:

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Originally posted by David Merrill:
Regardless of the definition of Limousine, the point I was trying to make was in this litigious socoiety we live in, to take it upon our selves to purchase a product that even the manufactures will not stand behind, is risky at best. Yes I know, that's why we have insurance companies. From what I have seen, most companies register their long cars as Limousines. Meaning that they are limited to 14 passengers. Because they are registered as 14 passenger vehicles, they carry only 2 million liability. Spread that 2 million over 14 possibile injuries and pain and suffering and what ever 1 800 LEE FREE can throw in, that 2 million becomes chump change. Even at 5 million for those who register their long cars as a bus, it still won't go far.

The very fact that the base vehicle manufacturer will not stand behind the vehicle would carry a lot of weight with a Jury should some sharp attorney like our colleague Mr. JHJ get a hold of that information. Because some of the companies that are producing these long cars are hear today and gone tomorrow, do you really think their pockets will be deep enough to help you out?

All of the big companies that are QVM/CMC are having a hard enough time because of the Gypsies who have entered the market to kick out these long cars to meet the demand.

I guess you could equate it to our own industry. We as legitimate operators like to follow the rules. We do things by the book. We get the proper licenses. We get the proper insurance. We follow all the tax rules. We put out a good product.

A new fad comes along, a bunch of new companies spring up that don't follow all the rules. But because they are offering what the public wants and we don't, they are taking away all of our business. One by one, we who are the legitimate business people fold up. Well that is what is happening to the legitimate Coach builders who do follow the rules. Because every one wants long cars, and no one wants the 120s any more, the Guys who follow the rules are falling by the way side. Hopefully the new rules on the Excursion/Navigator will breath some life into them but that may not even be enough.

I know, it's all about money. Give the public what it wants. Sell the sizzle not the Steak. I will always remember one thing my Dad would say "If you do it by the book, you can't go wrong" hard advice to follow sometimes but it seems to work.

Just my opinion, thanks for listening.

David E. Merrill

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David the simple fact is you can never buy "enough" insurance today. For example last weekene we had a Mardi Gras Ball here in Baton Rouge. In one of my limousines there were 4 surgeons and their wives in the back. What if god forbid, there was an accident with all 4 of these surgeons killed. Do you think 2 million or even 5 million would be enough insurance? I think not. We also carry CEO's and board members of Fortune 500 companies, considering their salaries do you think 2 million or even 20 million would be enough liability insurance to cover a disatrous accident? The answer is of course not. So the not enough insurance argument doesn't hold water with me.

On the QVM argument, the QVM program is a program designed by the auto manufacturers and administered by the auto manufacturers. It has no federal oversight or government approval. Some say it's a real safety program designed to improve safety standards for stretch limousines. Others say its a program to simply limit the liability of the auto manufacturer. You referred to these non-QVM companies as "gypsy" companies yet most are buiding cars the surpass the federal standards for braking and rollover stregth. I have personally toured the plant and watched my QVM stretches being built and I watched my Craftsmen 140" "gypsy" Navigator being built and I came to one conclusion. If I were a passenger involved in a serious collision, I would prefer it to happen in the "gypsy" SUV Navigator which of course is non-QVM.

The fact is the SUV stretches are here to stay. Ford has now certified the Excursion 140" and the Navigtor 140" is on its way also. I would be dollars to donuts in the next ten years the length of the QVM cars will surpass 140". I can remember 20 years ago people were agast when they saw Ultra come out with a 60" stretch and said it wasn't safe and it would never make it. Just look at what has happened since then.

Wade Randolph

Regardless of the definition of Limousine, the point I was trying to make was in this litigious socoiety we live in, to take it upon our selves to purchase a product that even the manufactures will not stand behind, is risky at best. Yes I know, that's why we have insurance companies. From what I have seen, most companies register their long cars as Limousines. Meaning that they are limited to 14 passengers. Because they are registered as 14 passenger vehicles, they carry only 2 million liability. Spread that 2 million over 14 possibile injuries and pain and suffering and what ever 1 800 LEE FREE can throw in, that 2 million becomes chump change. Even at 5 million for those who register their long cars as a bus, it still won't go far.

The very fact that the base vehicle manufacturer will not stand behind the vehicle would carry a lot of weight with a Jury should some sharp attorney like our colleague Mr. JHJ get a hold of that information. Because some of the companies that are producing these long cars are hear today and gone tomorrow, do you really think their pockets will be deep enough to help you out?

All of the big companies that are QVM/CMC are having a hard enough time because of the Gypsies who have entered the market to kick out these long cars to meet the demand.

I guess you could equate it to our own industry. We as legitimate operators like to follow the rules. We do things by the book. We get the proper licenses. We get the proper insurance. We follow all the tax rules. We put out a good product.

A new fad comes along, a bunch of new companies spring up that don't follow all the rules. But because they are offering what the public wants and we don't, they are taking away all of our business. One by one, we who are the legitimate business people fold up. Well that is what is happening to the legitimate Coach builders who do follow the rules. Because every one wants long cars, and no one wants the 120s any more, the Guys who follow the rules are falling by the way side. Hopefully the new rules on the Excursion/Navigator will breath some life into them but that may not even be enough.

I know, it's all about money. Give the public what it wants. Sell the sizzle not the Steak. I will always remember one thing my Dad would say "If you do it by the book, you can't go wrong" hard advice to follow sometimes but it seems to work.

Just my opinion, thanks for listening.

David E. Merrill

I think this guy needs to take a serious look at the post subject here
This picture is real - not doctored in anyway - and was taken in Waldorf, MD by a Transportation Supervisor for a company that delivers building materials for 84 Lumber. When he saw it in the parking lot of IHOP, he went and bought a camera to take pictures.

The car is still running as can be witnessed by the exhaust. A woman is either asleep or otherwise out in the front seat passenger side. The guy driving it was over jogging up and down on Rt. 925 in the background. The witnesses said their physical state was OTHER than normal and the police just shook their heads in amazement. The driver finally came back after the police were there and was getting down at the back to cut the 'twine around the load. They told him to get back until it was taken off.

The materials were loaded at Home Depot. Their store manager said they had the customer sign a waiver!

Both back tires are trashed. The back shocks were driven up through the floorboard. In the back seat were 10 bags, 80 lbs. each of concrete. On the roof are many 2X4s, 4X4s and sheets of OSB. They estimated the load weight at 3000 lbs. The car is a VW Jetta with FL plates and the guy said he was headed for Annapolis.

since most of the vehicles come from America...

SYLLABICATION: lim·ou·sine
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: lm-zn, lm-zn
KEY
NOUN: 1. Any of various large passenger vehicles, especially a luxurious automobile usually driven by a chauffeur and sometimes having a partition separating the passenger compartment from the driver's seat.
2. A van or small bus used to carry passengers on a regular route, as between an airport and a downtown area.
ETYMOLOGY: French, perhaps after Limousin.

So there.

The vehicles I produce have been designed by the engineering firm that is called in when the type of damage you are worried about happens. They know what goes wrong and why. This is why I'm stuck at 160" and 12 passengers. We do upgrade much of the vehicle to their specs.

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Originally posted by David Merrill:
To David @ LA Limo: I agree with you that 500 lbs over GVW is not going to break the car but your reference to the Legal Dept. is what it is all about. If some sharp Lawyer got hold of the fact that you were over weight and was able to convince a Jury that that contributed to the event, Good bye Limo Business, Good bye Farm and all the fixtures. Am I right JHJ??????

David E. Merrill

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There is another consideration. If your going to pursue night on the town business you probably won't stay in business very long unless you buy one. I would say the risk is small considering you need to compete first in order to stay around.

Wade Randolph

Lets look at a definition of car:
1. a vehicle moving on wheels

So as long as your SUV limousine does not have tracks you may rent it out

Wait a minute a tank limousine!! now I am on to something!!

Have a good day!!

Steve Walker
Azusa, CA
steve@capriceshop.com
http://www.capriceshop.com

To David @ LA Limo: I agree with you that 500 lbs over GVW is not going to break the car but your reference to the Legal Dept. is what it is all about. If some sharp Lawyer got hold of the fact that you were over weight and was able to convince a Jury that that contributed to the event, Good bye Limo Business, Good bye Farm and all the fixtures. Am I right JHJ??????

David E. Merrill

You may be right Steve....here`s my LAST statement on the subject: COLLINS ENGLISH DICTIONARY...
LIMO'OUSINE{zen} n.Large Luxurious car.
Did not see anything about large luxurious trucks or Hummers.
THE END.
On another note,my condolences to our American neighbours on the Columbia tragedy.