I really need clarification on something. I live in California and notice that most of the transportation companies in my area have gone over to paying their chauffeurs hourly wages by run rather than straight through the entire shift as before. Most pay 1 1/2 or 2 hours per run with no pay for waiting times in between. Granted, many allow the cars to be taken home while waiting but the chauffeur's time is still being used and reserved for the company. Is this proper? Is this legal? Your responses would be most appreciated!!

In the case that Tony sites, Yes I can see where the Employye would loose. Otherwise every truck Driver, Airline Crew member, Bus Driver or any one who is required to adhere to a code of conduct while off duty would be paid. But lets take the Limo Driver who goes to the airport, drops off and is instructed to wait out at the Airport for an incoming passenger in two hours. It is a lot cheaper to pay the Employee a couple of hours than deadhead on the vehicle. This Guy should be paid. However if the Driver is allowed to go home and take a Nap, Cut his lawn or what ever, then he should not have to be paid.

Just ask Jim Luff just how many $100.00 bills he had to use to wipe the A** of the IRS. I too wish that company would speak up. I am very interested in hearing how they did it.

I have no reason to fight it. It is only going to cost me $400.00 for 1/2 of the social security I would have had to pay any way. Had I been ruled an IC I would have had to pay full Social Security. If the company I was working for chooses to do so, that is their perogative. I sent you the ruling so you know who they are, check with them to see what they have in mind. I just know that in the future if some one tells me I am an Independent Contractor, I will just ask them to prove it or I will not work for them simple as that.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: David Merrill,

I think that everyone hear needs to remember that the IRS ruling that David received is probably worth as much as the paper I use to wipe my butt with in the bathroom.

The real piece of paper that matters would be the outcome in a decision in a court of law. If the operator were to ignore the ruling and David then sues the company in a court of law... That my folks will be the bread in the pudding. It has happened way to many time that the IRS, labor commission say yes it is this way when in court it doesn't stand.

I am very eager to find out what happens....
I can tell you one thing there was a company in Michigan that was sued and they do not lease the vehicle to the driver and yet they were ruled as an IC in court. I wish they would come on here and speak about it.

More thoughts to chew on from Texas Workforce Commission.....for those who want the one-liner - the employee lost.

Employees who are temporarily idle while waiting for further work in such a way that they are not able to use the time effectively for their own purposes must still be regarded as working, according to 29 C.F.R. 785.15. The DOL's position regarding "on call" time is found in 29 C.F.R. 785.16 and 785.17. In deciding whether time spent "on call" is compensable, DOL and the courts have traditionally used one variation or another of the test of whether an employee is "waiting to be engaged" (non-compensable time) or is "engaged to be waiting" (compensable time) (Skidmore v. Swift, 323 U.S. 134 (1944)).

The Fifth Circuit adopted a fairly strict standard for determining whether on-call time is payable in the 1991 case of Bright v. Houston Northwest Medical Center Survivor, Inc., 934 F.2d 671, cert. denied, 112 S.Ct. 882. This case involved a biomedical (life-support) equipment repair technician who was so indispensable to the employer's operation that he was on call 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. The employee was required at all times to wear a beeper, restrict his alcohol consumption, and be able to come to his workplace within 20 to 30 minutes of being "beeped". After more than eleven months of such duty, the employee separated from employment with the medical center and claimed the employer owed him overtime pay for all the time he spent on call. Noting that Bright admitted he was called in only four or five times each week, was paid for all time spent in responding to the calls, and was able at all non-duty times to conduct his personal affairs, including sleeping or resting at home, going shopping, watching television or movies, and going to restaurants, the Court declined to consider the on-call, off-duty time "hours worked" for overtime pay purposes. The Fifth Circuit ruled that the critical question is "whether the employee can use the on-call time effectively for his or her own purposes". Interestingly, this case is cited with approval in many similar decisions by circuits around the country, even by courts that acknowledge, as the Bright court did, that the on-call policy in question seemed "oppressive"; for example, see Martin v. Ohio Turnpike Commission, 968 F.2d 606, 609 (6th Cir. 1992); Berry v. County of Sonoma, 30 F.3d 1174, 1183 (9th Cir. 1994); and Birdwell v. City of Gadsden, Alabama, 970 F.2d 802, 808, 809 (11th Cir. 1992).

Jim: That is why I decided to get this ruling now rather than staying in the relationship for a number of years, having some one else file an SS 8 an get the same determination and end up costing me several thousands of Dollars. I just went over this with my accountant today and it will only cost me about $400.00 to social security which will benifit me me anyway.

Actually I ended up saving money because if I had bought their line that I was an IC, I would have ended up paying full self employment tax and would have to argue with the Government to get my money back.

I am very satisfied with the ruling and I hope others take my advice and make sure your Ducks are in a row if you call your Employees Independent Contractors.

So many thoughts about this thread. Gunny reiterated what I said about choices. There are many choices of occupations out there. This one clearly is not the best choice for some. Then the comments both for and against taking a one hour AP transfer made me think about my own crew. There are those that I don't call because they are not "team players" and there are those that I do call. Who do you think overall gets more hours during the whole year? The team players or the ones that get nit picky on assignments? Uh huh......you guessed it right I'm sure.

David, we all know that you have your paperwork from the IRS. I knew in the end it was going to end up costing YOU money and wondered why you didn't just make choice to move on and stop being a vendor, a driver, a chauffeur or whatever it was and cut your loss. Seems like it would have been a hell of a lot cheaper. Just my opinion.

But the topic here is hourly pay in the limousine industry. Hourly pay is paid to employees and employees are free to move on to greener pastures anytime. There is always someone waiting just around the corner who wants your job, can be trained for your job and will do your job if just given the chance. So if you have one foot on the banana peel already about the pay........get the other foot on and take the fall.

I only skimmed through the judgement and I do not understand why you posted this. This does not have anything to do with this discussion.

This lawsuit came about because of problems with the way the union relationship was handled and the firing of a chauffeur since he bacame a memebr of the teamsters. Also note that the judge did NOT order for them to pay for all of their time. The judge only allocated them an additional 1 hour pay for prep when they used to get 2 hours.

I need more time to look that one over some very interesting reading even though it has nothing to do with the original question.

[QUOTE] Music Express setteled with thier drivers for a couple million and one of the policies instituted was a time clock and they get paid from the time they get there till the time they leave.]

Steve, here it is: http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/shared_files/decisions/alj/JD(NY)-22-03.pdf

All of you who are paying other than what Nick is doing should take note. If the IRS or the DLEG were to shine the spot light on Nick, he probably would NOT have any problems. Can the rest of you say that?

The reason I have to pay back Social security is because I was doing business with this other company as a Vendor and putting all of the funds into my LLC. IRS determined that because they owned the Cars and did not lease them to me, told me when, where and most importantly how to conduct my business as a Chauffeur, I was found to be an Employee and I need to pay 1/2 FICA and medicare. They have to pay at least the other half.

The way it works with me is that my chauffeurs get paid $15.00/hr from the time they are asked to come into work until the time they punch out to go home.

I find that companies that are not busy do it by the trip commission.

Which way is the best way? I do not know. Different drivers swear that both ways are the best way. Both ways are legal if they are done properly. Once wagain which way is better? I do not know. All I know my drivers love our structure and since being in business in 1999 I have never lost a driver and my average driver years of experience is 14 years. Perhaps the proof in which way is better is the caliber of the drivers you retain.

Been there, done that and have the paperwork to back it up. I was lucky, I contacted the IRS to see if what I and the company I was working for were doing it correctly. We were not. Only going to cost me for back social security about $600.00 going to cost the company I was working for a lot more than that.

Just a sidenote:
one can do business using Independent Contractors and/or Contract Employees - just make sure they truely fit into that category. You accountant and attourney can advise on this

Seems companies everywhere trying to get by on the cheap at EMPLOYEE expense...

They call their EMPLOYEES 'Independent Contractors' but pay them like a 'Contract Empolyees' (paying short time per run, or just while on AD runs w/ no pay for waiting between). Alows the company to put greater amount of profit in their pocket - but Not Legal.

Jim Luff of LimoScene has posted numerous warnings about what not doing business correctly has cost not just his company, but himself personally.
Listen Up Everbody - do it RIGHT or pay the consequences! Don't play chicken with the IRS and Labor Dept., the government wins every time.

Life is about choices. No one can make anyone do something that they do not want to do.

Not around Detroit they don't pay time associated with an AP trip. Many just pay a flat rate (usually $15.00) regardless of how long it takes you. Some just pay tip only. Many just pay contract hours for an AD run. here again some just pay tip only. Very few are like Micheal and pay their Chauffeurs a fair wage for time worked

So let me get this right, you want to be paid for the dead time in between jobs right ? It is true you lost your time, but all of us get paid by the job / rental right? Downtime happens to every company but looking with your hand out for your time seems petty.The majority of companies pay for time associated with the trip, ie prep / drive time / cleanup and delays as it should be. I see your point but if did pay you i would expect you to help clean some limos at the shop during that time or would that not be fair? Or decline these type of jobs with downtime but dont complain when the phone doesn`t ring.
If you are a good chauffeur the money is there for you, and working with the company as a team effort is essential.

not taking one measily run per day could cost you greatly. One extra AP transfer for my guys averages $ 32.00 per trip X 365 days per year = $ 11,680 extra income.

also , when one calls in , usually another does , so by accepying a small run , it can add up very quickly.

That seems to be a common practice in this business. As soon as you get to know a little more than you should they get rid of you. I beleive Dean has a name for them someplace.

[QUOTE]Originally You said previous employer, let me guess after the wage claim you were not welcomed back with open arms?? SHHHHOOOOOOKING!!! "

It went the other way. After they repeatedly took away my additional tips on credit cards (illegal)I raised hell...they told me to take the day off (depriving me of $100.00 plus)....I told them where to shove it....and quit on the spot. I felt that I was one of their better drivers, was with them for many years, but they just can't get away from treating drivers like that. I simply cannot understand it. So, with that claim they got what they deserved.