The Limos.com Forum Has Moved!!!

I would agree that from all that I have read the dot listing is needed for interstate travel and was hoping to get some feedback from others who are in the same situation with 9 to 15 passenger limousines who have been through the audit of the dot, I also know from what I have read the requirements are different for the smaller limo's and was just reading throught the painstaking pages of the dot guidelines.

another company in town here who has 10 larger suv's, just went through an audit that took 5 days of on-site interaction with the auditors and in the end was fined $5000.00 for not having all of the dayly and weekly driver run sheets.

from everything I have read on the companys with the "smaller limo's only" being 9-15 passenger's, they only require that you "file a motor carrier identification report, mark their CMVs
with a USDOT identification number,
and maintain an accident register" Quoted from the dot guidline listed below.

It would be a great help and possible save some of us a lot of money, if anyone with any experince with the dot audit for the 9-15 passenger limo's Had any more information.

taken from: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administrati...lemakings/011101.pdf

SUMMARY: The FMCSA is amending the
Federal Motor Carrier Safety
Regulations (FMCSRs) to adopt the
statutory definition of a commercial
motor vehicle (CMV) found at 49 U.S.C.
31132. The FMCSA is also amending
the FMCSRs to require that motor
carriers operating CMVs designed or
used to transport between 9 and 15
passengers (including the driver) for
compensation file a motor carrier
identification report, mark their CMVs
with a USDOT identification number,
and maintain an accident register. The
agency is imposing these requirements
to monitor the operational safety of
motor carriers operating small
passenger-carrying vehicles for
compensation. This rulemaking is in
response to the Transportation Equity
Act for the 21st Century (TEA–21).
DATES: This rule is effective on February
12, 2001.

This is an update from the original post:

Last year we went thought the DOT audit with on of the agents, we had held or position on the 75 airmile rule and the dot finally agreed that we only needed to comply with the three items that were listed in there rag's We thought that was the end of it.

But know we have been contacted buy a new agent and they are telling us after much confusion and having to go to the top of the department That they did away with the 75 airmile exception. you can kina get the idea from the agents email to us:

Just wanted to touch base with you----My supervisors are still looking into your situation.....We just want to be absolutely sure we get the confusion cleared up this time and give you the correct information. Since I've been looking into this there seems to be confusion throughout the agency and I'm sorry for the delay.....

I'll stay in touch, and thanks for your patience.....

and it was followed up with another email which kind of did not add up because we pointed out all the rules from the DOT website, which is were the told us to get our info on requirements:

"I’m also opposed to making the carrier unsatisfactory because it wasn’t aware of Sec. 4136 of SAFETEA-LU. We published a direct final rule last July [72 FR 36760, July 5, 2007] to codify all of the SAFETEA-LU requirements that were self-executing and thus didn’t require notice and comment rulemaking. For a variety of reasons, we didn’t include Sec. 4136 in that rule; it will be implemented separately. Until that occurs, it seems to me inappropriate to penalize a carrier for not knowing about the abolition of the 75-mile zone when we haven’t even changed our own rules to reflect that fact."

Below is some data from there own web site:

Q: What is the rationale for the 75 air-mile standard?

A: FMCSA believes Congress intended us to make the FMCSRs applicable to commercial vans that transport passengers across the U.S.-Mexico border, and long-haul commercial van operations. The final rule is not applicable to local van operations, because they do not appear to pose the same level of safety risks to their customers and the traveling public. The agency believes it most effective to address long-haul van operations when the distance traveled exceeds a certain threshold. Based on the analysis of recent accident data, the agency believes the threshold should be 75 air-miles. The majority of recent fatal accidents involving large vans appear to have occurred outside of 75 air-miles from the driver's residence.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blue Diamond Limos:
Basically, it's an inspection of your whole vehicle(s), office files and paperwork audit, insurance, drug program, drivers applications and drivers records, MCS-90 filing, BOC-3 compliance, workman's comp., drivers trip logs and maitenance logs and records, accident records, ect.

Ok, I finally found something that seems to be spelled out plainly (pasted below) and its from the dot.gov website:


http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/news/news-releases/2001/camionetasqa.pdf

Requirements for Operators of Small Passenger-Carrying CMVs
What are the rulemaking notices about?
The FMCSA published two rulemaking notices concerning small passenger-carrying commercial
motor vehicles (CMVs), a final rule which takes effect on February 12, 2001, and a notice of
proposed rulemaking requesting public comment on additional requirements for operators of
these CMVs.
The final rule amends the FMCSA’s definition of “commercial motor vehicle” (CMV) to include
vehicles designed or used to transport between 9 and 15 passengers (including the driver) for
compensation, and requires operators of these vehicles to file a motor carrier identification
report, mark their CMVs with a USDOT identification number, and maintain an accident
register.
The NPRM proposes to amend the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations (FMCSRs) to
require that motor carriers operating small passenger-carrying CMVs in interstate commerce
comply with the safety regulations (e.g., driver qualifications; vehicle equipment; hours of
service; inspection, repair and maintenance) when they are directly compensated for such
services, and the transportation of any of the passengers covers a distance greater than 75 air
miles (86.3 statute miles or 138.9 kilometers).
Why did the FMCSA take these actions?
The FMCSA has taken these actions in response to provisions of the Transportation Equity Act
for the 21st Century (TEA-21) and the Motor Carrier Safety Improvement Act of 1999 (MCSIA).
The FMCSA believes these actions must be taken to learn more about the operational safety of
all motor carriers operating small passenger-carrying vehicles for compensation. The three
requirements in the final rule will help the agency compile information on the number of motor
carriers operating small passenger-carrying vehicles for compensation, the locations of their
principal places of businesses, the number of vehicles operated, and the number of drivers
employed.
With the enactment of the MCSIA, the agency is required to make the safety-related operational
FMCSRs (e.g., driver qualifications, hours of service, inspection, repair and maintenance, etc.)
applicable to certain operations of small passenger-carrying vehicles designed or used to
transport between 9 and 15 passengers (including the driver) for compensation in interstate
commerce. Namely, the small passenger-carrying CMV operations that must be regulated under
section 212 of the MCSIA include what the Congress referred to as “camionetas” (i.e., vans that
transport passengers across the U.S.-Mexico border) and those operations outside of commercial
zones that have been determined to pose serious safety risks.
2
How many motor carriers could be affected by these rulemakings?
The FMCSA believes the final rule could affect up to 14,000 interstate motor carriers of
passengers based on information submitted to the rulemaking docket. The agency estimates that
the NPRM would affect approximately 1,650 for-hire motor carriers of passengers currently
covered by Federal rules concerning operating authority and financial responsibility.
What is the difference between the group of motor carriers that are covered by the final
rule, and the group of motor carriers that would be covered by the NPRM?
The final rule is applicable to all motor carriers of passengers operating CMVs designed or used
to transport 9 to 15 passengers (including the driver), for compensation, in interstate commerce.
No distinction is made between businesses that are primarily engaged in the for-hire
transportation of passengers and those that are primarily engaged in a non-transportation related
enterprise. The agency estimates that there are approximately 14,000 motor carriers in this
category.
The NPRM would be applicable to motor carriers operating CMVs designed or used to transport
between 9 and 15 passengers (including the driver), when they are directly compensated for such
services, and the transportation of any passenger covers a distance greater than 75 air miles (86.3
statute miles or 138.9 kilometers). The agency estimates that there are approximately 1,650
motor carriers in this category. Therefore, the NPRM would be applicable to a small segment of
the carriers covered by the final rule.
Why was a distinction made between the applicability of the final rule and the NPRM?
The distinction was made between motor carriers primarily engaged in the for-hire transportation
of passengers (i.e., directly compensated) and those that are not because the agency believes
proposed rulemaking should focus first and foremost on motor carriers of passengers that offer
their services to the general public in exchange for compensation. Although the FMCSA has
applied identification marking and accident recording requirements on all interstate motor
carriers transporting passengers for compensation, the agency does not believe the Congress
intended to impose safety-related operational regulations on entities providing interstate
passenger transportation services that are incidental to their primary, non-transportation related
business. While both types of operations are conducted for compensation, the FMCSA believes
that it is important to distinguish between businesses with a primary objective of providing
transportation, and others. The former group is directly compensated for their transportation
services, while the latter is compensated indirectly in a total package charge or some other
assessment or concession is given for the transportation performed.
3
What are the anticipated costs?
It is estimated that the costs of complying with the final rule will be less than $3.4 million. The
FMCSA estimates that the cost of marking CMVs will be between $11 and $27 per vehicle
depending on the number of vehicles the motor carrier operates. If there are 125,000 vehicles
designed or used to transport 9 to 15 passengers for compensation in interstate commerce (based
on information submitted to the docket), the costs to the industry for marking CMVs could be
between $1,375,000 and $3,375,000. The costs are one-time expenses and would not be
recurring. Generally, the marking would last the normal life of the vehicle.
With regard to the NPRM, the costs are estimated at approximately $10 million per year. The
sum of all estimated costs of requiring operators of small passenger-carrying CMVs to comply
with parts 391, 395, and 396 is approximately $10, 221,000 for the first year and $10,073,000 per
year thereafter. A summary of the first-year costs is presented below.
Summary of First-year Costs
to Comply with the FMCSRs
$2,831,467 for medical exams
$148,793 for driver qualifications files
($59,245 subsequent years)
$4,184,174 for hours of service recordkeeping
$3,057,000 for inspection, repair, and maintenance
Total: $10, 221,000
What are the safety benefits?
The FMCSA is not able to quantify the benefits at this time because the agency does not have
detailed accident causation data. However, the agency believes that operational safety could be
improved through compliance with the FMCSRs. The benefit of preventing as few as one-half
percent (about six accidents) of the 1,135 non-rush hour fatal accidents involving large vans
during 1998 would outweigh the estimated costs. Using DOT guidelines of a threshold value per
fatality prevented of $2.7 million, we estimate that preventing as few as six single-fatality
accidents per year would result in at least $16.2 million in benefits per year which would
outweigh the estimated costs. Therefore, we believe the benefits achieved would outweigh the
estimated costs of the rule.
4
Would the operators of small passenger-carrying CMVs be covered by the safety fitness
procedures?
Yes. If the proposed requirements are adopted, motor carriers operating small passenger-carrying
CMVs would be covered by the same safety fitness procedures and standards used to evaluate
other interstate motor carriers. This means that motor carriers affected by this rulemaking would
be subject to compliance reviews and receive safety ratings. For those that receive an
“unsatisfactory” safety rating, they would be prohibited from operating CMVs to transport
passengers in interstate commerce. In addition, these motor carriers would be ineligible to
contract or subcontract with any Federal agency for transportation of passengers in interstate
commerce.
Would the operators of small passenger-carrying CMVs be subject to the FMCSA’s
financial responsibility and operating authority requirements?
The financial responsibility (49 CFR 387) and operating authority (49 CFR 365) requirements
are already applicable to for-hire motor carriers of passengers operating vehicles designed to
transport less than 16 passengers, with certain exceptions. The exceptions are statutory (see 49
U.S.C. 31138(e)(1) and (3)), and the FMCSA cannot rescind them. Subpart B of part 387
requires a minimum of $1.5 million in public liability for the operation of vehicles with a seating
capacity of 15 passengers or less, unless the vehicles fall into one of the exempt categories. Part
365 requires for-hire motor carriers to obtain operating authority and subpart C of part 387
requires them to file proof of financial responsibility.
Would the drivers be subject to the commercial driver’s license, controlled substances and
alcohol testing rules?
The FMCSA did not propose to make the commercial driver’s license and controlled substances
and alcohol testing requirements applicable to operators of small passenger-carrying CMVs,
because neither section 4008 of the TEA-21 nor section 212 of the MCSIA amend the statutory
definition of CMV used for those programs (49 U.S.C. 31301). Consequently, the passengercarrying
threshold for CDL and controlled substances and alcohol testing requirements remains
at 16 (including the driver).

Also I will be calling them tomorrow to setup a safety audit, so any last minute advise would be appreciated

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blue Diamond Limos:
You've already found the information. Key is how to interpret it.

How to interpret it is the key. It is best interpreted by those who have been through it.
Take for example this excerpt (below) from the NLA website interpatation, this could apply to us ????

" Moreover, to the extent that a motor carrier’s operations of such 9-15 passenger equipment are restricted entirely to a 75 air-mile radius of the driver’s normal work reporting location, the only other USDOT safety regulations the carrier must satisfy are (a) to maintain an accident register and (b) to file an MCS-150 Form to obtain its USDOT identifier number. Such motor carriers are not required to maintain driver qualification files, nor must their drivers maintain daily driver logs. Indeed, such drivers are not even subject to the DOT’s driver hours of service limitations."

I would like to know the rules going in, but it seems the rules are hard to interpret.

You've already found the information. Key is how to interpret it. There is a difference between intrastate and interstate inspections.

Basically, it's an inspection of your whole vehicle(s), office files and paperwork audit, insurance, drug program, drivers applications and drivers records, MCS-90 filing, BOC-3 compliance, workman's comp., drivers trip logs and maitenance logs and records, accident records, ect.

Contact the DOT Inspector in your area and ask your questions. An audit/ inspection on a 9-15 pass is going to be less involved than one for 16+ pass.

They basically want to know that you doing what is required of you and your business.

Interstate single state filing is out. All is going Federal DOT now. I understand that the new filing regs and fees should be out maybe July 2007.

Where's all the help, surely someone has been through this audit, hopefully someone in Ohio with the smaller cars, non the less I will be going through this process very soon, I have just received another letter from the DOT to contact them within 10 days about the audit, so I got on line and dug up some more info.

I Got the following from the NLA website http://www.limo.org/vnla/ScriptContent/t_inside.cfm?action=1010


March 2006
Federal DOT Regulations for the Livery Industry

Click here to view chart.


October 2005
DOT and CDL Regulation Enforcement Intensified


By
Barry Lefkowitz, NLA Government Affairs Director
and
Michael F. Morrone, Esq., NLA Legal Counsel


USDOT Regulations
The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) has stepped up enforcement of the regulation that an active and valid U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) identification number must be properly displayed on commercial motor vehicles conducting interstate business. This intensification began in July 2005 (although the rule was established four years ago).

The USDOT’s regulations mandate that all motor vehicles designed or used to transport for compensation in interstate commerce more than 8 passengers (including the driver) be identified on both sides of the vehicle by (a) the legal name or a single trade name of the motor carrier operator and (b) the operator’s motor carrier identification number preceded by the letters “USDOT.”

The letters and numbers must contrast sharply in color with the background on which they are placed and must be readily legible, during daylight hours, from a distance of 50 feet while the vehicle is stationary. Generally speaking, letters and numbers that are two inches in height will satisfy the legibility standard. Such marking must be kept and maintained in a manner that retains the required legibility. The operator’s name and USDOT identification number may be painted on the vehicle or displayed via a removable magnetic placard.

In the event that a vehicle is leased to another motor carrier, the lessee’s name and USDOT identifier number must also be displayed on both sides of the vehicle and preceded by the words “operated by.”

A violation of the vehicle identification requirements can result in a fine of as much as $11,000, though the fines imposed will generally be far less than that amount.

Moreover, to the extent that a motor carrier’s operations of such 9-15 passenger equipment are restricted entirely to a 75 air-mile radius of the driver’s normal work reporting location, the only other USDOT safety regulations the carrier must satisfy are (a) to maintain an accident register and (b) to file an MCS-150 Form to obtain its USDOT identifier number. Such motor carriers are not required to maintain driver qualification files, nor must their drivers maintain daily driver logs. Indeed, such drivers are not even subject to the DOT’s driver hours of service limitations.

With respect to the performance of for-hire passenger movements in interstate commerce, the USDOT will require the motor carrier operator to maintain a minimum of $1.5 million of public liability insurance coverage in regard to any vehicle it uses with a seating capacity of 15 or fewer passengers (including the driver). For vehicles with a seating capacity of 16 or more passengers, the public liability coverage must be at least $5 million.

Black Cars and sedans operating interstate should also maintain in the vehicle at all times written confirmation from the USDOT of their USDOT identifier number, since those operators, by virtue of the size of the vehicles they are utilizing, are not obligated under the regulations to display that number on the exterior of the vehicle.

CDL Regulations
Under federal law, a driver who operates a vehicle with seating for 16 or more passengers (including the driver) must have a Commercial Driver’s License (CDL). The license is to be issued by the state where the driver resides.

Recently, the FMCSA ruled that states must verify a driver’s eligibility before issuing or renewing a CDL by checking the National Driver Register and the CDL Information System. This double-check requirement necessitates fingerprinting for criminal background, drug testing and a biennial health examination.

Several states, insofar as intrastate operations are concerned, are even more stringent than the federal government, so operators should verify the requirements of their own jurisdictions. For example, New Jersey mandates the same scrutiny (as described above) for drivers who operate vehicles capable of carrying 6 or more passengers.

For vehicles that carry 8 or more passengers (including the driver), the USDOT mandates that the operator maintain driver qualification files and hour of service logs, as well as vehicle records of inspection, maintenance and repair.

Imminent Audits
USDOT has indicated it will be making a concerted effort to audit operators during the coming year with inspections that focus on driver qualifications, hours of service, drug and alcohol testing, vehicular maintenance and record keeping.

Carriers utilizing drivers required to hold CDLs must maintain current employees’ drug and alcohol test results and criminal background checks in a discrete locked file cabinet that is strictly for USDOT.

Log books or time records that document the number of hours spent on duty and the hours engaged in driving must be kept for drivers who operate beyond a 75 air-mile radius of their normal work reporting location.