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I am wondering if you are in a 10 pax rated limo, only 10 seatbelts, what legal implications might arise, and what problems with insurance coverage (Insurance King, hopefully you will post) could one have if something were to have happened, ticket, accident, etc. Not only to the driver, but to the company as well?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by John Thompson:
Let me know if you are still looking for a job.


Yep, this incident just happened Friday, contemplating a move out of state anyways though. But, if you know of something until then..

Let me know if you are still looking for a job.

quote:

Originally posted by LimoNewbie:
I am wondering if you are in a 10 pax rated limo, only 10 seatbelts, what legal implications might arise, and what problems with insurance coverage (Insurance King, hopefully you will post) could one have if something were to have happened, ticket, accident, etc. Not only to the driver, but to the company as well?

quote:

Originally posted by Elegant Limousines of Palm Coast:
I can tell you the first thing the ins. company will say is you have ins. for a 10 pass that is what you pay for.Not a 12 pass! Remember ins comparies are like thievs.If they can find a reason not to pay they will use it.You did the right thing.All you boss cares about is making the $$ Not the clients saftey or you ass for the matter.He should be glad he has a responsable driver.

No, the insurance policy is for Scheduled Autos. The liability limit is determined by either local, state, federal regulations, by the insured, or a combination of these. It is normally written on a Combined Single Limit (CSL), but in some instances, a Split Limit Liability policy is written instead.

A CSL policy is going to pay up to the limit provided for bodily injury and property damage. Dave, the limit of insurance has nothing to do with the number of passengers. I was reading the Highest Paid Claims of 2006 today, and in regards to Auto claims, a lady being killed because SHE hit a tractor-trailer topped the list for Auto claims at in excess of $35 million. I think that the higher limits that one carries does help but with just one passenger in the vehicle can result in a business ending verdict. A motorcoach with a pax of 55 and a limousine with a pax of 16 are required to carry the same limit of liability ins ($5mm) when operating under federal rules. I mean, is there a bit of a disparity here? I think that there should be a sliding scale. What makes a 15 pax different from a 16? But there is a huge difference between a 16 and a 45-55.

Now, during your trial (because there will be one) they are going to find the operator and the driver also at fault and assign a percent of the liability towards them. At this time the insurance company will subrogate against the insured to gain any of the monies that they paid for your portion of the loss that you were liabile for.

Also, Sal is speaking the truth about the regulatory agencies; they will ruin it for you. I heard that in Nashville, TN, the city was shutting down operators for having vehicles improperly licensed and over-loaded. Can you imagine being a client and you cannot finish the eveing in the limo you chartered?

Passenger Capasity is just that. The insurance goes by what the vehicle is rate for, not how many can cram in it.

You were right, owner was stupid! Case closed.

I don't know about your area, but the regulatory authorities in this area, the Maryland Public Service Commission, and the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Commission inspect every limousine, and require carriers to state loading capacity.

Have an accident, which you must report to the PSC and WMATC, and get caught overloaded and you are through.

Overloading opens up a Pandora’s box of liability and is just plain irresponsible.

Don't overload, period.

Well, here's an update: Needless to say, I'm looking for a different job now. The owner didn't see eye to eye with me. Not to say I don't mind after hearing that this is quite common practice for them. I left, I just didn't like being placed in that situation, especially with the owner not backing me. It is very sad to hear, especially with they (the owners) exclaim they run into this during prom season, when most of their vehicles are over-capacity. I cannot and will not work for a company that operates w/out safety being forefront.

Problem here is smart lawyers:
Lawyer : your Limo is manufactured as a ten passenger vehicle"

ans : Yes.

Lawyer: yet you allowed 12 passengers to get in ?

Ans : yes

Lawyer : so your stopping distance was compromised by the extra weight ?

ans : yes

Lawyer : and although the vehicle you hit came out of a side road, you were unable to stop quickly enought to avoid hitting it ?

ans : yes

Result ? you are stuffed !

There are many more scenario's that a Lawyer can use, this is just one but it should be a warning to all that overloading puts you in the frame as the driver, even if the boss says its OK.

My cars get overloaded all the time in the SUV limos, But the 10 packs are 10 packs, no more than 10. Those airbags in the back are already in a struggle to lift the car. (BTW) had one pop last week, Bad news.

It is not a matter of the number of people you have in the vehicle, it is a matter of how much weight you have in the vehicle. A 1997 T.C. 120 weighs in at 6050 lbs empty. (I know because I had tow of them) It's GVWR (fully loaded) is 7100 lbs. The standard used is 150 lbs per passenger. Based on this, you have cargo weight (payload) capacity of 1050 lbs. With 8 passengers in the back, no front seat and the Chauffeur you are already at 1350 lbs. thus exceeding the GVWR of that vehicle by 300 lbs. This GVWR is even exceeded more in the SUV class of vehicle.

You said you had little Girls in the car, probably not a lot of weight. But lets say you had 8 250 lb Farm Boys in the car. You would be way over weight but you would have the correct passenger capacity.

Yes you were right for telling the person that they could not ride. The problem is there are too many owners in this business who throw caution to the wind and get away with it who do not agree with you.

Not surprisingly, those who yell & scream regulation for public safety more often than not sell 120's as 10pax's or maintains a fleet of non-certified vehicles.

Sort of, hey we have a million coverage on our vehicles that have not met the original manufacturers certification program for safety. So when the vehicle splits in half doing 70, rest assure you are covered.

Newb, you made a tough call & showed moxy for standing by your guns. Hope that the boss is mature enough to back you.

Your owner never went to Limo School. Routinely exceeding passenger limits is one of this industry's dirty little secrets and not a sound strategy. In the event of an accident, you would be screwed-the blame would be pinned on you.

quote:

Originally posted by LimoNewbie:
Actually, I'll tell you what happened first, that way everyone knows the details.. I did a father-daughter event last night. 5 Girls, 5 fathers, dropped them off at the restaurant, and they called afterwards to pick them up. When I arrived 6 girls scrambled inside, and then 5 dads started doing so. I told them the vehicle is rated at 10 passengers, one of them will have to exit. The client then informed me that the owner told him it would be alright if he did that when he first booked. I went with it, but called after I dropped them off at the school for the dance. In previous times, when one did try to excede pax limit, I was always told by the owner, "no", when I worked at a different company, and have since never allowed it. Well, after speaking with the owner, they said to just go with it. In my thinking of the # of seatbelts, and possible DOT regs not being followed, when they did get in to go to their next destination, I refused to leave until one pax exited. (Also, this additional girl arrived at the restaurant in another limousine, but she wanted to ride in the Chrysler, so she did have other means of transportation.) All hell broke loose. The client was yelling at me, asking to speak with the owner, I had the owner on the phone yelling, I had enough, so I told them a final "NO", and one exited, and I took them on. Was I right in sticking to my guns? The owner said there isn't anything in the DOT regs that says we can't excede the pax rating, and that the insurance would not have any problems with it as well. I am looking at it if there was an accident, what would happen? I know that I would be the one placed in front to take the fall should anything have happened. This is my liveliehood!

I can tell you the first thing the ins. company will say is you have ins. for a 10 pass that is what you pay for.Not a 12 pass! Remember ins comparies are like thievs.If they can find a reason not to pay they will use it.You did the right thing.All you boss cares about is making the $$ Not the clients saftey or you ass for the matter.He should be glad he has a responsable driver.

quote:

Originally posted by LimoNewbie:
I am wondering if you are in a 10 pax rated limo, only 10 seatbelts, what legal implications might arise, and what problems with insurance coverage (Insurance King, hopefully you will post) could one have if something were to have happened, ticket, accident, etc. Not only to the driver, but to the company as well?

Not an expert on the subject but I have been told that it really does not matter how many people you have, it just cuts the liability pie up into smaller slices. Lets say you have 2 million liability and you have 12 people and there is an accident, well when you hit 2 million, you are on your own. Not a good idea to over load the car any way because it could cost you a couple of air bags and the ain't cheap.

But I guess you have to make a decision. Tell one of you best Customers that one of his guest has to stay behind or roll the dice.

Actually, I'll tell you what happened first, that way everyone knows the details.. I did a father-daughter event last night. 5 Girls, 5 fathers, dropped them off at the restaurant, and they called afterwards to pick them up. When I arrived 6 girls scrambled inside, and then 5 dads started doing so. I told them the vehicle is rated at 10 passengers, one of them will have to exit. The client then informed me that the owner told him it would be alright if he did that when he first booked. I went with it, but called after I dropped them off at the school for the dance. In previous times, when one did try to excede pax limit, I was always told by the owner, "no", when I worked at a different company, and have since never allowed it. Well, after speaking with the owner, they said to just go with it. In my thinking of the # of seatbelts, and possible DOT regs not being followed, when they did get in to go to their next destination, I refused to leave until one pax exited. (Also, this additional girl arrived at the restaurant in another limousine, but she wanted to ride in the Chrysler, so she did have other means of transportation.) All hell broke loose. The client was yelling at me, asking to speak with the owner, I had the owner on the phone yelling, I had enough, so I told them a final "NO", and one exited, and I took them on. Was I right in sticking to my guns? The owner said there isn't anything in the DOT regs that says we can't excede the pax rating, and that the insurance would not have any problems with it as well. I am looking at it if there was an accident, what would happen? I know that I would be the one placed in front to take the fall should anything have happened. This is my liveliehood!