The Limos.com Forum Has Moved!!!

It is the most viewed thread under the NLA topic since the forums started - by at least 33.33%; so far!

quote:

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Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
Lots of folks reading this thread. Must be some worried control freaks.

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Lots of folks reading this thread. Must be some worried control freaks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:
A state law doesn't preclude stuff like this . It seems to be sprinkled throughout the Code for counties to be autonomous. What is it in Florida? No income tax? or no sales tax? Something, I don't know, but it looks like the State wants the "communities" to raise their own revenue as the reason for some of this nonsense.
See 125.01 (n) County Organizational & Intergovtmental Relations
...gives the power to regulate & license....

If I could find the definitive name for a motorcoach besides "bus". Do charter bus companies also live under the multiple certificate environment? If not, let's find their codes to emulate. If so, there's a major lobbyist (or source of info) that may be joined with in the battle.

A few years ago, I challenged the City of Virginia Beach with an amatuer submission to the State attorney General. Without getting into specifics, I still think my arguments were well researched, but not paid attention to. The response was either you can take us to court or get the law changed. Your case took the court route.
We got our laws changed.
Got no enforcement, but at least we have Statewide laws... that IS worth something compared to what you guys are going through.

And once we get enforcement, we'll have judges letting 'em go.
Then after we get the prosecutors...
when does it EEEEnd!!!!!!


Dr G
Florida does have statewide laws. Every county decides and imposes regulation upon providers located within their respective county and if someone desires to tap the market of another county, then you have to play by their rules. In addition to 341 & 316 that also charges the FDOT with implementing safety measures, there is a statute that regulates insurance requirements. Quite simple, counties you can regulate businesses within your jurisdiction, counties you can not regulate providers engaged solely in intercounty transportation, DOT you regulate safety, providers you must have state mandated insurance or face stiff penalties. Unfortunately, everyone operates under their own tangent and it's taking a couple of us spending a sizeable amount of funds to have the courts enforce the laws.

By doing research of the history of VFH regulation within Florida, at one time the State regulated VFHs then threw the ball to the counties to regulate. Chapter 341 also contains specific dates that grandfathered protection to nonpublic sector buses with intercity routes. My theory is that this law was specifically written to afford protection from overzealous counties out to make a buck. As rural counties are growing and more demand for intrastate provision is needed, the more new operators there will be to question the unchallenged policies being imposed. The HCPTC is a Independent Special District (not supported by tax) that relies on revenue generated from fees and fines for existence. Bad setup for a market entry regulatory agency. Another Florida law that I utilize is Ch 163.566 Public Transportation whereas (10) defines a "Operator" as "not" a person furnishing transportation solely for his/her customers. The laws are fairly basic. Just ignored until someone went digging.

A Florida Attorney General Opinion regarding the Legislatures intent on CH 316 ends with, .....Whereas, nonuniform laws and ordinances are a source of inconveience and hazard to the motorist .............. and raise serious barriers to interstate and intrastate travel and commerce .....


For the readers, I can not emphasize enough that the issues are "regulation" not permit fees. One county or several counties where major transportation hubs are located, imposing total operational regulatory measures on intrastate providers who just need to enter, load/unload and depart.


And once again, when the President of the NLA quotes that the NLA was formed to protect members from unfair government regulation and they fail to answer the bell when sounded, I will make this information known. When I state that it's "political" that is a direct quote from Solombrino to me.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gunny,

quote:

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Originally posted by gunny:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:

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Can you send me a link to the Fla law, that I may educate myself? If that's what it says, shouldn't it be a goal to include limos & sedans in it, and not just intracity buses? From what I've read, I have some confusion about what vehicles you operate that are having problems. Buses, limos or sedans? All of the above?


Glenn Stafford
Love Limousine
Richmond, VA

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Glenn,
I'm not that great with the computer and it would be very difficult to post a link to the laws in question. So I'll post them here:

CH 316.003(3) F.S. BUS. -- Any motor vehicle designed for carrying more than 10 passengers and used for the transportation of persons and any motor vehicle, other than a taxicab, designed and used for the transportation of persons for compensation.

CH 316.003(78) F.S. Nonpublic sector bus. -- Any bus which is used for the transportation of persons for compensation and which is not owned, leased, operated, or controlled by a municipal, county, or state government or a governmentally owned or managed nonprofit corporation.

CH 341.102 Regulation of nonpublic sector buses. --
(1) No local government entity shall unduly restrict or impose any economic regulation upon the use of nonpublic sector buses engaged solely in intercounty transportation, or engaged in intracity transportation.........Any existing restrictions inconsistent with this section are invalid. However, local govermental entities may enact necessary safety, insurance, and traffic ordinances.

I see little room for the interpretation of these laws. The Florida legislature saw fit to lump all categories of VFH vehicles except cabs into one simple category. If you operate a vehicle designed and utilized to transport passengers for compensation it's a "BUS".

Now as far as getting politicians, operators, the NlA together/involved with drafting some proposal that all will agree to and passing legislation and all that happy stuff. I don't have the patience nor the time. One individual has been working on a "one permit" idea for numerous years and if he makes headway now it's because of the hell the rest of us are raising in the courts and that a local State Senator (that the PTC pissed off) chairs the transportation committee (payback is a mofo). Changes are happening and will happen at a very fast pace considering the PTCs roots are some 50 odd years in the making. It is a hell of a lot easier to demand enforcement of the laws on the books then to try and persuade politicians to invent new laws. And all the NLA had to do was throw a little weight behind the push. Those who are opposed to the NLA involvement are nothing in the big picture as this is not a popularity contest as jurors will be the decision makers..[/QUOTE]

I've been reading through the Code this afternoon doing searches for motor carrier, taxi & limo. The definitions 316.03 also included
316.03 (66) Commercial Motor Vehicle
(66) COMMERCIAL MOTOR VEHICLE.--Any self-propelled or towed vehicle used on the public highways in commerce to transport passengers or cargo, if such vehicle:

(a) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or more;

(b) Is designed to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver; or

(c) Is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act, as amended (49 U.S.C. ss. 1801 et seq.).

10K weight will cover alot of vehicles - except QVM limos and sedans, but other than that... ?


331.15 Auto transportation between county airports; exceptions.--

(1) The term "motor carrier" as used in this section shall mean any person, firm, corporation, or partnership, which is engaged in the business of transporting passengers for hire by motor-propelled vehicles, including, but not limited to, buses and sedan automobiles.

(2) The board of county commissioners of every county owning and operating an airport shall have the right, power, and authority to enter into contracts with one or more motor carriers for the transportation of passengers for hire between such airport or airports and points within such county. Such contract or contracts shall authorize the term of said contract or contracts authorizing such motor carrier to transport passengers for hire over the roads, streets, and highways of such county between such airport and points within such county.

(3) Provided, however, this section shall not be applicable in any county owning or operating an airport, which said airport is geographically located so as to be separated from the mainland of the state by any bay, ocean, sea, river, or other body of water, and further provided that the provisions of the section shall not apply to counties having a population between 150,000 and 200,000.

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A state law doesn't preclude stuff like this . It seems to be sprinkled throughout the Code for counties to be autonomous. What is it in Florida? No income tax? or no sales tax? Something, I don't know, but it looks like the State wants the "communities" to raise their own revenue as the reason for some of this nonsense.
See 125.01 (n) County Organizational & Intergovtmental Relations
...gives the power to regulate & license....

If I could find the definitive name for a motorcoach besides "bus". Do charter bus companies also live under the multiple certificate environment? If not, let's find their codes to emulate. If so, there's a major lobbyist (or source of info) that may be joined with in the battle.

A few years ago, I challenged the City of Virginia Beach with an amatuer submission to the State attorney General. Without getting into specifics, I still think my arguments were well researched, but not paid attention to. The response was either you can take us to court or get the law changed. Your case took the court route.
We got our laws changed.
Got no enforcement, but at least we have Statewide laws... that IS worth something compared to what you guys are going through.

And once we get enforcement, we'll have judges letting 'em go.
Then after we get the prosecutors...
when does it EEEEnd!!!!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:

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Can you send me a link to the Fla law, that I may educate myself? If that's what it says, shouldn't it be a goal to include limos & sedans in it, and not just intracity buses? From what I've read, I have some confusion about what vehicles you operate that are having problems. Buses, limos or sedans? All of the above?


Glenn Stafford
Love Limousine
Richmond, VA[/QUOTE]

Glenn,
I'm not that great with the computer and it would be very difficult to post a link to the laws in question. So I'll post them here:

CH 316.003(3) F.S. BUS. -- Any motor vehicle designed for carrying more than 10 passengers and used for the transportation of persons and any motor vehicle, other than a taxicab, designed and used for the transportation of persons for compensation.

CH 316.003(78) F.S. Nonpublic sector bus. -- Any bus which is used for the transportation of persons for compensation and which is not owned, leased, operated, or controlled by a municipal, county, or state government or a governmentally owned or managed nonprofit corporation.

CH 341.102 Regulation of nonpublic sector buses. --
(1) No local government entity shall unduly restrict or impose any economic regulation upon the use of nonpublic sector buses engaged solely in intercounty transportation, or engaged in intracity transportation.........Any existing restrictions inconsistent with this section are invalid. However, local govermental entities may enact necessary safety, insurance, and traffic ordinances.

I see little room for the interpretation of these laws. The Florida legislature saw fit to lump all categories of VFH vehicles except cabs into one simple category. If a vehicle is designed and utilized to transport passengers for compensation (except taxicabs) it's a "BUS". If that bus is not operated by a government entity it is a nonpublic sector bus.

Now as far as getting politicians, operators, the NlA together/involved with drafting some proposal that all will agree to and passing legislation and all that happy stuff. I don't have the patience nor the time. One individual has been working on a "one permit" idea for numerous years and if he makes headway now it's because of the hell the rest of us are raising in the courts and that a local State Senator (that the PTC pissed off) chairs the transportation committee (payback is a mofo). Changes are happening and will happen at a very fast pace considering the PTCs roots are some 50 odd years in the making. It is a hell of a lot easier to demand enforcement of the laws on the books then to try and persuade politicians to invent new laws. And all the NLA had to do was throw a little weight behind the push. Those who are opposed to the NLA involvement are nothing in the big picture as this is not a popularity contest as jurors will be the decision makers..

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gunny,

quote:

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Originally posted by gunny:
I'll keeep it short and to the point. Dr G., I fail to see where your response addressed the issues raised on this post.

The quotes I posted from the Executive Director of the NLA are in his words. Words that he utilizes to try and recruit new members. If he is going to use such words and the NLA fails to live by them, I will call them to the carpet.

If you take the time to read other post by myself concerning the fight and victories in Florida, most of the questions you posted are evident.

When a NLA member(s) take on a abusive regulatory agency as the Hillsborough Public Transportation Commission and notifiy the NLA of such. At a minimum we deserve a good luck response! It took a negative post on this site to rate a phone call.

When I am informed by the President of the NLA that the NLA will not get involved because of the politics of members who don't want and are fighting over-regulation and those members who are content with the way things are regardless of the merits of the cases before the Federal Court clearly shows a total lack of leadership and integrity as there is a distinct difference between "unfair" and "unlawful" regulation. And my reference contained in the post you quoted is directed at the NLA members who contacted Solombrino to persuade him and the NLA not to get involved for whatever self-motivating reasons. When I read Florida Law that states, "no local goverment entity shall unduly restrict or impose economic regulation upon non public sector buses engaged solely in intercounty transportation" and every locale in Florida with major transportation hubs is extorting fees from intrastate providers and I am told the NLA will not get involved bacause of "politics", in my mind the NLA becomes nothing but a useless puppet of a certain group of self serving operators caught up in their own hype.

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Can you send me a link to the Fla law, that I may educate myself? If that's what it says, shouldn't it be a goal to include limos & sedans in it, and not just intracity buses? From what I've read, I have some confusion about what vehicles you operate that are having problems. Buses, limos or sedans? All of the above?

Sorry to be dense, I don't spend alot of time here, and answers in simple terms are easier to figure out than the other BS that is slung around.

Re: the politics
We are debating in Virginia to require backround checks. It should be a no-brainer. We are the only motor carrier classification (including taxis) that does not require it. We also have members that come down on both sides of the regulatory fence re: more or less regulation. So does the local association do it anyway? No. We study it together and when we go in with an approach for legislation we've laid some groundwork and we know what's in the can before we let the worms out. The fact that there are various factions of operators with differing opinions does not (in my mind) allow NLA to come into Fla and start drafting legislation that will affect all the operators.
My opinion is that the Fla people need to get a baseline of agreement amongst themselves re: what the changes are that are needed.
What state regulatory agency would be responsible if you go to statewide permits? Is there a friend in that agency that could enable coordination of a task force bringing together various members of the motor carrier community to study the possibilities, budgets required and consequences of a statewide permit?

These are questions we asked here, then we got it done over a period of a couple years and walked away with relationships with taxi & motorcoach lobbyists that were not adversarial.

The frustration comes through loud & clear.
According to some, I have no clues. I happen to think I am asking valid questions to find a solution without the accompanying venom that others find necessary.

Best regards.

Glenn Stafford
Love Limousine
Richmond, VA

One more thing. I want to address the "politics" in Gunny's post as a reason for NLA standing clear in Florida. What NLA really said is that some of our important members want more restrictions on operators at airports, while our less-important members oppose them, therefore, we shoud not get involved because of these "politics." What crap! Everything NLA does is political (except maybe sending Hurricane afflicted members to Las Vegas). Whether it acts or not depends on whose politics are being reflected by the board of directors.

Think about it. Everything NLA does is to pit one part of the industry against another, or one group of members against another. Every board that has ever controlled NLA has used NLA policy and action, or inaction, to gore somebody else's ox. If all 10,000 operators in the industry belonged to NLA (or however many there really are since no one seems to know), there would be so much "politics" that NLA would do noting except raise money for libraries and to send members to Las Vegas. What they really told Gunny is that we have directors who WANT to restrict operators at the Tampa airport, and they're more important than you and the non-members you hang out with. NLA has always had operators who have been on the outside pissing into the tent, and then they get elected as directors, and then they want to be on the inside pissing out. Gunny, you are still on the outside pissing in.

quote:

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Originally posted by JHJ:
I think next year the NLA annual meeting of the members should be separated from the LCT show in Las Vegas and moved to a central location, such as Des Moines, just to see who is interested enough to show up. Whddayathink? Enough people to meet in a motel room? Or perhaps in a 10-pax? Or in Scott Solombrino's bus?

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Let's be honest. If a board member has a regulatory problem the NLA will help. But if your not, your screwed. All that babble about standing behind members is just bs.

I think next year the NLA annual meeting of the members should be separated from the LCT show in Las Vegas and moved to a central location, such as Des Moines, just to see who is interested enough to show up. Whddayathink? Enough people to meet in a motel room? Or perhaps in a 10-pax? Or in Scott Solombrino's bus?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JHJ,

I have highlighted the inane portions of the Polish Doctor's post. Whoever said NLA was part of the problem? Nothing like setting up a strawman to knock down. And as to the "I thinks," "I don't know[s]," and "I believe[s]," you can really take that to the bank. The Good Doctor apparently has "so little time" he didn't go back to the beginning of the thread to read that NLA turned its back entirely on Florida so they could devote their time to raising money to send hurricane afflicted operators to Las Vegas!

What is NLA's job? I don't think anyone suggested that NLA weigh in and fight the battle. But according to NLA's purpose in its by-laws, the association is to "provide a mechanism for the collection of information and inform members concerning matters of mutual interest and concern." So who else has had similar problems in other states and localities? Why can't Florida confer with Barry Lefkovitz to at least get some ideas as to what to do? And if NLA is so prestigious an organization with national clout, why not lend moral support by weighing in with a position letter and say it supports the Tampa Bay operators? The cost is virtually insignificant; the benefits huge. I guess they're too busy tilting at the gas guzzler windmill.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:
So much here to respond to ... so little time.
Who in Florida has a point of contact with the state legislators? Who are the people on the transportation committee? Is there an operator in that district that has made contact with his delegate or senator OR BOTH?
Under what Code section is the State law for charter bus licensing and other motor carriers for property and passengers? Who are the lobbyists in FL for the motorcoach people? Taxi people? Trucking Association?
When does the State legislature meet? Find that one out, go spend a few days at a transportation cmte and you'll meet the playas.

I am really sorry about the situation in Florida. It's a disgrace. While the situation plays out in the local arena though, I believe there should be something done on the State level to get it out of the local hands.
I don't know that's the job for the NLA.

<gasp>

I don't know that that's the job for the NLA, because it is up to each individual State to craft there legislation based on their needs. I do believe that the NLA would provide support and lobbying expertise to those interested to visit the state legislature after appointments have been set up. I think they'd also help testify to committees if needed.

But I think the operators in the State need to get organized on their State Capitol and also with their representatives maybe through a letter writing campaign describing the problem. We could cut and paste the letter from somewhere in these archives probably.

Your problem in Florida is not caused by the NLA. They can be part of the solution. There is not a member nationwide that wouldn't be willing to help and doesn't sympathize.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: JHJ,

I'll keeep it short and to the point. Dr G., I fail to see where your response addressed the issues raised on this post.

The quotes I posted from the Executive Director of the NLA are in his words. Words that he utilizes to try and recruit new members. If he is going to use such words and the NLA fails to live by them, I will call them to the carpet.

If you take the time to read other post by myself concerning the fight and victories in Florida, most of the questions you posted are evident.

When a NLA member(s) take on a abusive regulatory agency as the Hillsborough Public Transportation Commission and notifiy the NLA of such. At a minimum we deserve a good luck response! It took a negative post on this site to rate a phone call.

When I am informed by the President of the NLA that the NLA will not get involved because of the politics of members who don't want and are fighting over-regulation and those members who are content with the way things are regardless of the merits of the cases before the Federal Court clearly shows a total lack of leadership and integrity as there is a distinct difference between "unfair" and "unlawful" regulation. And my reference contained in the post you quoted is directed at the NLA members who contacted Solombrino to persuade him and the NLA not to get involved for whatever self-motivating reasons. When I read Florida Law that states, "no local goverment entity shall unduly restrict or impose economic regulation upon non public sector buses engaged solely in intercounty transportation" and every locale in Florida with major transportation hubs is extorting fees from intrastate providers and I am told the NLA will not get involved bacause of "politics", in my mind the NLA becomes nothing but a useless puppet of a certain group of self serving operators caught up in their own hype.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:

quote:

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Originally posted by gunny:
Just when I thought I was done venting the "LimoScene" arrives in my mail. The words of the Executive Director:
"Of course, whenever a dedicated group steps into the sunlight to work for the good of the industry, there always seems to be a squirmy group that hides in the shadows and spouts criticism from the darkness."

I would like to know what "Squirmy Group" pressed the NLA not to get involved with action that has the potential to free operators performing intrastate travel from multiple permitting statewide?

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So much here to respond to ... so little time.
Who in Florida has a point of contact with the state legislators? Who are the people on the transportation committee? Is there an operator in that district that has made contact with his delegate or senator OR BOTH?
Under what Code section is the State law for charter bus licensing and other motor carriers for property and passengers? Who are the lobbyists in FL for the motorcoach people? Taxi people? Trucking Association?
When does the State legislature meet? Find that one out, go spend a few days at a transportation cmte and you'll meet the playas.

I am really sorry about the situation in Florida. It's a disgrace. While the situation plays out in the local arena though, I believe there should be something done on the State level to get it out of the local hands.
I don't know that's the job for the NLA.

<gasp>

I don't know that that's the job for the NLA, because it is up to each individual State to craft there legislation based on their needs. I do believe that the NLA would provide support and lobbying expertise to those interested to visit the state legislature after appointments have been set up. I think they'd also help testify to committees if needed.

But I think the operators in the State need to get organized on their State Capitol and also with their representatives maybe through a letter writing campaign describing the problem. We could cut and paste the letter from somewhere in these archives probably.

Your problem in Florida is not caused by the NLA. They can be part of the solution. There is not a member nationwide that wouldn't be willing to help and doesn't sympathize.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: gunny,

quote:

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Originally posted by Wade Randolph:

quote:

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Originally posted by LimoKnight:
Gunny you strike all the right notes on your post. But let me add to this chorus of discontent.

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Let me add this also. The convention is held during the peak convention season in Las Vegas. Why not hold it during the summer when the deals are good in Vegas and most operators are slow? Why hammer us with $300.00 hotel rooms and $400.00 flights. During the summer you can get the same rooms for under $100.00 per night and the flights at under $200.00. Plus it's easier on us because we are so slow during the middle of the summer.

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And this year they hit it dead on NA$CAR week. WOOHOO. VACATION IN VEGAS BABEE!
I work hard, why shouldn't I be able to "spend"...er, "invest" money on making my business better?

news flash
according to a TLPA newsletter, hotel room rates have been rising along with occupancy.

There's a BiG hint somewhere in there....

quote:

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Originally posted by gunny:
Just when I thought I was done venting the "LimoScene" arrives in my mail. The words of the Executive Director:
"Of course, whenever a dedicated group steps into the sunlight to work for the good of the industry, there always seems to be a squirmy group that hides in the shadows and spouts criticism from the darkness."

I would like to know what "Squirmy Group" pressed the NLA not to get involved with action that has the potential to free operators performing intrastate travel from multiple permitting statewide?

---

So much here to respond to ... so little time.
Who in Florida has a point of contact with the state legislators? Who are the people on the transportation committee? Is there an operator in that district that has made contact with his delegate or senator OR BOTH?
Under what Code section is the State law for charter bus licensing and other motor carriers for property and passengers? Who are the lobbyists in FL for the motorcoach people? Taxi people? Trucking Association?
When does the State legislature meet? Find that one out, go spend a few days at a transportation cmte and you'll meet the playas.

I am really sorry about the situation in Florida. It's a disgrace. While the situation plays out in the local arena though, I believe there should be something done on the State level to get it out of the local hands.
I don't know that's the job for the NLA.

<gasp>

I don't know that that's the job for the NLA, because it is up to each individual State to craft there legislation based on their needs. I do believe that the NLA would provide support and lobbying expertise to those interested to visit the state legislature after appointments have been set up. I think they'd also help testify to committees if needed.

But I think the operators in the State need to get organized on their State Capitol and also with their representatives maybe through a letter writing campaign describing the problem. We could cut and paste the letter from somewhere in these archives probably.

Your problem in Florida is not caused by the NLA. They can be part of the solution. There is not a member nationwide that wouldn't be willing to help and doesn't sympathize.

Wade- I find the timing of this year's LCT show particularly unfortunate and expensive. However not everyone finds summers slow. Many small operators we know would find it impossible or suicidal to attend a summer show. Hopefully because we attend and learn more with each show we will grow and prosper, therefore better able to attend and keep the cycle going. So far that has been true for us, but this year was more of a stretch :-) for us.

Despite the shortcomings of the NLA, I have found the association a great encouragement overall. It is far from perfect, but I have found it more valuable than frustrating for the three short years I have been in the business. I hope to be able to do my part to help others and to improve the association.

Marc Rold
Wild Horse Limousine

quote:

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Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
The convention is held during the peak convention season in Las Vegas. Why not hold it during the summer when the deals are good in Vegas and most operators are slow?

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Good work, Gunny - that's as good as it gets!

quote:

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Originally posted by gunny:
Hey, I heard from Fran! Well, sort of. He checked "yes" on senders receipt when I kicked out a copy of this weeks court victory announcement to him.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LimoKnight:
... and they have to attend the 2005 LCT show in Las Vegas.

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Stunning.

quote:

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Originally posted by Wade Randolph:

Let me add this also. The convention is held during the peak convention season in Las Vegas. Why not hold it during the summer when the deals are good in Vegas and most operators are slow? Why hammer us with $300.00 hotel rooms and $400.00 flights. During the summer you can get the same rooms for under $100.00 per night and the flights at under $200.00. Plus it's easier on us because we are so slow during the middle of the summer.

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This is so the vendors get a last crack at you with their new toys before prom season.

Hey, I heard from Fran! Well, sort of. He checked "yes" on senders receipt when I kicked out a copy of this weeks court victory announcement to him.