The Limos.com Forum Has Moved!!!

http://www.mcguirewoods.com/lawyers/index/James_H_Joseph.asp
Practice Areas
* Bankruptcy and Restructuring Group
Mr. Joseph's practice focuses on commercial bankruptcy, insolvency and creditors’ rights.

http://www.startupjournal.com/ideas/services/200007260827-thomas.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/5ltl6
A newer company is Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars, run by Barbara Joseph. She and a brother acquired the company from the bankruptcy remnants of a divorce.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TxLimoGuy:
I think the origin of the thread was JHJ's bashing of companies advertising Chauffeur Training and his proposal that ISO certification was something a limo company could truly market which the customer might understand.
I wasn't in the industry when the old chauffeur certification process was around so its hard for me to know how good or bad it was. As far as ISO, if your customers are largely corporate then it may be true that they understand it, but will it matter? Personally I don't see the value (return on investment) of ISO certification for service related industries, especially if your customers are not demanding it.
The company I worked for before getting into this industry went through ISO certification because European customers demanded it, and the process took at least a year, maybe more.
And it is true as JHJ says that unless you have been through the process of becoming ISO certified, worked at a company that was certified, or done some serious reading up on it then it can be tough to understand. ISO is not about anyone telling you what your regs or standards will be, but it does specify a framework for requirements that your quality system must meet. Standing from the outside you really can not grasp the amount of time, money and commitment to not only become certified but to truly institutionalize the changes into the corporation.
In summary, nice idea but ISO certification is simply not practical _or necessary_ for probably 90+% of the limo operators out there including most of the participants on this forum. _Implementation of the concepts_ however is always going to help any organization and reading up on ISO, TQM, Six Sigma, Situational Leadership and all the MBA 101 type topics should be encouraged to everyone here.
Many companies which spend all the time and money to get ISO certified fail to truly ingrain it into the corporate soul and it simply becomes a half-baked marketing badge. So what is the small/medium guy to do? Instead spend some time to create a rigorous documented training program for all levels of the staff (drivers, reservations, cleaning crew, etc), document your maintenance program, document basic company policies and procedures, solicit continuous feedback from your staff and customers and use it to improve. The time invested in these simply steps will reap benefits quickly. Your customers will notice the difference in the results, much more than from a little logo or slogan posted on your website.
Our limo company having only been around a short time we are not 100% of the way there on all of my goals due to time constraints, but I work on each of the above on a daily basis to keep it moving in the right direction. It truly is a process of continuous improvement.

---

GREAT POST TONY!

Ditto.

Nice that someone has a clue.

Obviously, what you say about quality programs is correct. However, remember that ISO9000 certification is not simply a marketing tool. It bcomes a marketing tool of sorts because of what it does for your organization and the end-results to the customer. But remember, you know what these programs are and, in fact, live them on a daily basis without the documentation. By the time you get where you want to be, the documentantion would be the easiest part. Now, remember where this discussion of ISO9000 started. The industry in 2000 had been focused on the CTCP for a couple or three years. A number of bigger companies had adopted it (such as Carey, for example). The problem was that it was an NLA-endorsed (indeed sponsored) program (that had just been "given" to NLA to run). The Carey's of the world were trumpeting the program to prove how much better than you their company was, and that effort was aided and abetted by NLA. The idea wasn't half bad, but the implementation sucked. In addition, our customers had no idea what the CTCP was or what difference it made; they were merely told that it made a difference (sort of like NLA membership). No amount of money spent on this "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval" was going to turn it into an everyday expectation. Given this situation, I advanced ISO9000 as a quality program that not only addressed chauffeur training and performance, but also everything else in the company on the theory that if a little bit of quality is good, then a lot is better, and it can be accomplished without someone setting "standards" or the government promulgating "regulations," and therefore many of the things the industry fears could be staved off by a "real" quality program that is commonly (indeed, internationally) recognized. Also, at the same time, ISO9000 certification had just started to move into the American trucking industry and those markings on trucks that said "ISO9000 certified" were popping up a number of places. I disagree that ISO9000 certification of a service business is impractiacal or unecessary. As you know, the value is in the process, and although you are likely smart enough to institutionalize the quality process in building your company, most others in this industry aren't, although in their own way the smarter and experienced operators seem to find their way to a similar end result.

At the same time that I began to champion ISO9000 certification in the chauffeured transportation industry, we were also looking at the demands that businesses were then making - they were looking to one-source sourcing of car service and they indeed were then quality focused (I think a lot of this changed when the 9/11-recession double whammy hit), and a few of us were looking around for the model that was going to forge the industry, or the best part of it, into an organization or association that would uniformly deliver the quality that the biggest customers were looking for AND ISO9000 had the benefit of being something that those types of customers knew something about. It is true that in the retail limousine trade the typical customer wouldn't know ISO9000 from the CTCP from Six Sigma from - well, you get the idea.

Let me draw the bottom line - I believe that ISO9000 is a tremendous benefit to ANY company because the process is invaluable and will continue to be invaluable if it is indeed institutionalized. I believe it would make a tremendous difference in this industry where operators tend to do something because someone else did or does it that way - it would be tremendously uplifting. And I also think that when you postulate "what is the small/medium guy to do," you really said that they should de facto ISO9000 certify without the logo or slogan. So rather than simply write a bunch of manuals for your whole organization (remember that most limousine operators have a tough time writing or reading sentences and what passes for "manuals" in this industry is laughable) without a unified qualify objective, why not organize that effort around something known to work and that the world increasingly recognizes, if not already. The guts of ISO9000 is not the slogan or logo, but the process, and if you're going to go through some process, ANY process, why not go through one that is objectified and get the benefit of the logo or slogan into the bargain. I realize that the first couple of guys that tackle ISO9000 certification would be tackling a big project. But, like the trucking industry, once the registrars have an industry template, it is not rocket science to apply it across different companies.

Someday, someone is going to put an ISO9000 program together in this industry and, I believe, is going to spread it through a franchising or some such similar model and create a powerhouse network that American business is going to gravitate to. Maybe it won't happen until a Fortune 5000 CEO gets killed or badly injured in a chauffeured car, or kidnapped, or some such. But it IS going to happen and it's only a question of whether our industry is pushed or pulled into such a program.

Remember that the growth of ISO9000 occurred in Europe somewhat parallel to European economic integration through the EU. It was partially a response to the demands of welding disparate economies, industries and business into a more unified whole, something the U.S.A. and its homogenous, continental market didn't really seem to need (and there is still a lot of that mentality out there). But then the economy became global and a funny thing happened on the way to global competition - we discovered that American industry was really quite insular and that we knew little about the culture of quality (in other words, we got our ass handed to us). We've been playing catch-up ball ever since. Does any of this sound like the state of the chauffeured transportation industry at all? What's going to happen when the first inurance company gives a meaningful discount when underwriting a company that has an organized and recognized quality program. Before 9/11 and the stock market crash, some insurance companies were engaged in a vague effort to so recognize the CTCP program, they just didn't have enough experience and statistics, or confidence, yet in the program to know if it in fact produced a difference in the risk being underwritten. I submit that in time they would take an ISO9000 program into account in underwriting, and in time it will become the edge for those companies competing for corporate business on a national or regional basis. It's only a question of how and when each of us is going to get there, Tex.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JHJ,

I think the origin of the thread was JHJ's bashing of companies advertising Chauffeur Training and his proposal that ISO certification was something a limo company could truly market which the customer might understand.
I wasn't in the industry when the old chauffeur certification process was around so its hard for me to know how good or bad it was. As far as ISO, if your customers are largely corporate then it may be true that they understand it, but will it matter? Personally I don't see the value (return on investment) of ISO certification for service related industries, especially if your customers are not demanding it.
The company I worked for before getting into this industry went through ISO certification because European customers demanded it, and the process took at least a year, maybe more.
And it is true as JHJ says that unless you have been through the process of becoming ISO certified, worked at a company that was certified, or done some serious reading up on it then it can be tough to understand. ISO is not about anyone telling you what your regs or standards will be, but it does specify a framework for requirements that your quality system must meet. Standing from the outside you really can not grasp the amount of time, money and commitment to not only become certified but to truly institutionalize the changes into the corporation.
In summary, nice idea but ISO certification is simply not practical or necessary for probably 90+% of the limo operators out there including most of the participants on this forum. Implementation of the concepts however is always going to help any organization and reading up on ISO, TQM, Six Sigma, Situational Leadership and all the MBA 101 type topics should be encouraged to everyone here.
Many companies which spend all the time and money to get ISO certified fail to truly ingrain it into the corporate soul and it simply becomes a half-baked marketing badge. So what is the small/medium guy to do? Instead spend some time to create a rigorous documented training program for all levels of the staff (drivers, reservations, cleaning crew, etc), document your maintenance program, document basic company policies and procedures, solicit continuous feedback from your staff and customers and use it to improve. The time invested in these simply steps will reap benefits quickly. Your customers will notice the difference in the results, much more than from a little logo or slogan posted on your website.
Our limo company having only been around a short time we are not 100% of the way there on all of my goals due to time constraints, but I work on each of the above on a daily basis to keep it moving in the right direction. It truly is a process of continuous improvement.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TxLimoGuy,

Dr. G
A good start would be to hit the book store and pick up the "Deming Management Method" by W. Edward Deming. It'll give a good read on "Total Quality Management" (TQM). A very popular tool that evolved in the 80's and adopted by the USMC except we called it TQL (Leadership). Apply the theories to the management of your company and training of your employees. Hope the info helps......

Regs and standards have nothing to do with ISO9000, silly boy. Apparently you couldn't read between the lines in my response to your silly post, so I'll say it more bluntly - you haven't even the foggiest notion of what ISO9000 is about (I think last time I said, any more than you know nuclear physics), so please don't bother me until you have educated yourself. There are literally tens of thousands of ISO sites on the net. If you're reading-challenged, then just say so. Your silly question is as precisely ridiculous as those few ninnys that come on this forum for the first time and say, "what do I have to do to start a limousine business?" Only worse. [Wipe the grin off your face, Wade.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:
I'm still waiting. If you have a set of standards, let's have them.
I'd rather be involved in developing the regs than following them after someone else decides what's best for me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JHJ:
You are about as far from understanding ISO quality standards (otherwise known as "this ISO thing") as you are from understanding nuclear engineering (otherwise known as "this fusion thing"). Best you devote some energy to educating yourself before you start expressing any agreement or disagreement about anything. It'll give your foot a rest from being in your mouth.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:

This ISO thing intrigues me, but I'm not versed enough about it. How can you standardize all the possible procedures that may occur in our business.

Inquiring minds want to know...

The list of items we do is so endless and the segmentation of the various markets is so specialized, the list of procedures for our industry will never be complete. Although it's a good idea, the one size fits all designation/certification is not something I agree can be applied.

---

---

Put the personal differences aside, and contribute something good for the betterment of the industry.

---

I'm still waiting. If you have a set of standards, let's have them.
I'd rather be involved in developing the regs than following them after someone else decides what's best for me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JHJ:
You are about as far from understanding ISO quality standards (otherwise known as "this ISO thing") as you are from understanding nuclear engineering (otherwise known as "this fusion thing"). Best you devote some energy to educating yourself before you start expressing any agreement or disagreement about anything. It'll give your foot a rest from being in your mouth.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:

This ISO thing intrigues me, but I'm not versed enough about it. How can you standardize all the possible procedures that may occur in our business.

Inquiring minds want to know...

The list of items we do is so endless and the segmentation of the various markets is so specialized, the list of procedures for our industry will never be complete. Although it's a good idea, the one size fits all designation/certification is not something I agree can be applied.

---

---

Put the personal differences aside, and contribute something good for the betterment of the industry.

When corruption is involved with regulatory authorities, contact your local FBI office. It is your duty as a citizen.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
Glenn, In some markets a good portion of the gypsys are folks who have permits yet don't have insurance on all their vehicles. Pretending to be legit !! Corruption runs wild... These are the sharecroppers of which I speak.

---

I'm hearing that is happening in parts of VA also. The Motor Vehicle dealers don't have that problem with curbstoners. They have monthly or quarterly meetings and they fine or suspend dealers and/or salesmen for non-compliance. The license fees they pay, fund the budget for the Motor Vehicle Dealer Board. Running the numbers for the Motor Carrier side doesn't come up with enough to fund the activities and maintain the records - so it stays a function of DMV without hearings (due to budget issues) and the SHARECROPPERS RUN WILD !!!!!!

So - do we raise fees on everyone including chauffers (licensing) and have fines and enforcement or keep BEATING OUR HEADS AGAINST THE WALL with the status quo ?
My opinion on that will differ from at least one of the others in our association. I say lobby for DMV to get money to have hearings. But you can't tell the players without a program and they have to be caught in the act for enforcement to step in.
It just a small snowball right now.... it'll gain momentum - eventually

quote:

---

As far as your response on associations-I believe that inclusiveness is not on the menu in the right place in our young industry. Association membership numbers relative to the total number of operators in the Chauffeured Transportation Trade reflect that.

---

Inclusiveness is always on the menu if you want to do it right, isn't it? The issues are when the personal line is blurred or there is a difference of ethical values. Mr Obvious sez - the ethics are different throughout the Industry. So how to come together? Gotta focus on the common issues and leave out the personal attacks IMO.

quote:

---

One thing that we do all have in common are the regulation issues. Seeking the common ground is the thread that binds. Knowing how to separate fool's gold from the real thing is a talent to be developed...

---

Controlling the regulatory environment is not as hard as people make it out to be. It just requires a steady awareness and presence and patience, but when it is completed and it is to your satisfaction, somethink else will pop up and we can start all over again... ;-)

Regards - see ya in AC

Glenn, In some markets a good portion of the gypsys are folks who have permits yet don't have insurance on all their vehicles. Pretending to be legit !! Corruption runs wild... These are the sharecroppers of which I speak. As far as your response on associations-I believe that inclusiveness is not on the menu in the right place in our young industry. Association membership numbers relative to the total number of operators in the Chauffeured Transportation Trade reflect that. One thing that we do all have in common are the regulation issues. Seeking the common ground is the thread that binds. Knowing how to separate fool's gold from the real thing is a talent to be developed...

I almost wrote that this would be precisely your response, but I put the bait out and you bit. Now spit out the hook and go get a band-aid.

I thought the purpose of these forums is to learn from each other. You have ideas why not share them? Let a group pick them apart and put them back together. Two or ten heads are better than one - duh huh
(that part of the response was in the spirit of your post)

Seriously, I say I don't know, you seem to. What are the nuts and bolts of it. Let a group of us work it over. Maybe just maybe someone will add something you don't know.

naaahhh

quote:

---

Originally posted by JHJ:
You are about as far from understanding ISO quality standards (otherwise known as "this ISO thing") as you are from understanding nuclear engineering (otherwise known as "this fusion thing"). Best you devote some energy to educating yourself before you start expressing any agreement or disagreement about anything. It'll give your foot a rest from being in your mouth.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:

This ISO thing intrigues me, but I'm not versed enough about it. How can you standardize all the possible procedures that may occur in our business.

Someone have a procedure for:

disinfecting a limo from throwing up?
picking up an inmate from a prison?
Insurance company & medical transfers?
Keeping the bachelorettes from playing porn cds on the big flat screen in public view?
doing a four day gig out of town at the inauguration or super bowl?

And we haven't even touched on "vehicle definitions" - a term that will stop the project dead in it's tracks.
How about software and office procedures?
Can a home office be compliant to these standards?

Inquiring minds want to know...

The list of items we do is so endless and the segmentation of the various markets is so specialized, the list of procedures for our industry will never be complete. Although it's a good idea, the one size fits all designation/certification is not something I agree can be applied.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
Not everything is on the up and up Glenn. The New Orleans Livery Asscoaition is fighting an association here that promotes restrictive laws and general malfeasance in the opinion of the vast majority of operators in the greater New Orleans area. The thinking of some members of that association (not all) seems to be that if you can't compete-then rig the game !! I personally take deep pleasure whenever a sharecropper, service-leper or food-stamp "livery" leave the business. They do nothing but cheapen our profession. As far as the direction of the NLA goes, my thoughts are very well known. To succeed nationally, one must represent the entire industry of 17,000+ operators.

---

I think there are numerous opportunities for operators to find market niches at an NLA convention. They provide info to every end of the spectrum. And the ends are 180 degrees apart. I don't run white cars, never have. Some folks have all white cars. They are in a different business than I am, AFAIC. But we are in the same industry and sometimes do trips from the same scenario. But the NLA cannot be all things to all people. There's too many kinds in our business. So why not stick to generalitites?

The biggest problems I see are areas of regulation that operators are not unified to prevent or fight. And that's why I am so pro-involvement. It breaks my heart to read about Oklahoma having a problem and having to form an association, but with some help from NLA and others, they'll be in charge of their own destiny before long.

Re: the gypsys, they're going to crop up from time to time and my philosophy is to try to educate by inviting them to join, getting them caught in a sting - to receive a warning, and prosecution if they continue. And I'll keep my head down and keep banging it into the wall until we get results in the areas I'm concerned with.

wuddayagunnadew?

You are about as far from understanding ISO quality standards (otherwise known as "this ISO thing") as you are from understanding nuclear engineering (otherwise known as "this fusion thing"). Best you devote some energy to educating yourself before you start expressing any agreement or disagreement about anything. It'll give your foot a rest from being in your mouth.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:

This ISO thing intrigues me, but I'm not versed enough about it. How can you standardize all the possible procedures that may occur in our business.

Someone have a procedure for:

disinfecting a limo from throwing up?
picking up an inmate from a prison?
Insurance company & medical transfers?
Keeping the bachelorettes from playing porn cds on the big flat screen in public view?
doing a four day gig out of town at the inauguration or super bowl?

And we haven't even touched on "vehicle definitions" - a term that will stop the project dead in it's tracks.
How about software and office procedures?
Can a home office be compliant to these standards?

Inquiring minds want to know...

The list of items we do is so endless and the segmentation of the various markets is so specialized, the list of procedures for our industry will never be complete. Although it's a good idea, the one size fits all designation/certification is not something I agree can be applied.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JHJ:
The ISO 9000 certification has been my pet project since 2000. I was the CEO of a company (not in transportation) for a period of time that was so certified, so I was familiar with the process and the importance. At the same time that we were in Chicago in October, 2000 for the CTCP discussion within NLA, we met with a representative of Perry Johnson, Inc. which is headquartered in Chicago and which is one of the largest ISO9000 registrars and consultants in the world ( http://www.pji.com ). Among those present were Joey Cirruzzo and the late Jon Chester. Independent of that, Wade Randolph had explored this issue with a consultant in his neck of the woods. At the time we were looking for a group that would work with PJ to develop the industry template and, perhaps, form the core of a network of ISO9000 certified transportation companies. Obviously, the events of 9/11 and the recession after that took everyone's eye off that ball, and so nothing really has advanced in this area, but the considerations haven't changed. We had estimates of about $25,000 to develop the first certification package which could then be built upon from there - depends on how much of the manual writing the company wants to do itself (something that I wouldn't have any trouble with since I am an experienced driveler).

quote:

---

Originally posted by AAA/GOT:
Indeed, ISO 9000 is the way to go. The problem, as I understand it, is the expense in establishing the criteria or benckmarking our industry. A group of companies or a good association could do this and share that expense. I looked at ISO a few years ago, at your suggestion, and I recall thinking "I hope someone does this so I can follow but I'll never be able to afford it on my own".

I too will be leaving soon. I'm off to the coal country of West Virginia for a few days on my ATV. If I can, I'll respond before I go, but it's that likely you won't hear from me until next week.

---

---

This ISO thing intrigues me, but I'm not versed enough about it. How can you standardize all the possible procedures that may occur in our business.

Someone have a procedure for:

disinfecting a limo from throwing up?
picking up an inmate from a prison?
Insurance company & medical transfers?
Keeping the bachelorettes from playing porn cds on the big flat screen in public view?
doing a four day gig out of town at the inauguration or super bowl?

And we haven't even touched on "vehicle definitions" - a term that will stop the project dead in it's tracks.
How about software and office procedures?
Can a home office be compliant to these standards?

Inquiring minds want to know...

The list of items we do is so endless and the segmentation of the various markets is so specialized, the list of procedures for our industry will never be complete. Although it's a good idea, the one size fits all designation/certification is not something I agree can be applied.

Woops nevermind.

Not everything is on the up and up Glenn. The New Orleans Livery Asscoaition is fighting an association here that promotes restrictive laws and general malfeasance in the opinion of the vast majority of operators in the greater New Orleans area. The thinking of some members of that association (not all) seems to be that if you can't compete-then rig the game !! I personally take deep pleasure whenever a sharecropper, service-leper or food-stamp "livery" leave the business. They do nothing but cheapen our profession. As far as the direction of the NLA goes, my thoughts are very well known. To succeed nationally, one must represent the entire industry of 17,000+ operators.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JHJ:
I have never figured out what the fascination is in this industry with helping new people get started. I can't think of another industry association that devotes time to such an endeavor. This is hard to reconcile with the constant gripes in these forums about price-cutting, when start-ups are the most likely competitors to cut prices either to get a foothold in the market or because they simply don't know what their costs are or how to price. It is in the interest of the industry as a whole to develop healthy, experienced, knowledgeable and informed competitors, and not to assist every Tom, Dick and Harry who can get a home equity loan to buy a used limousine to gain entrance to an overcrowded market. I don't support regulating these people out of the business, but it is not the proper role of a trade association to train new entrants - unless, of course, the trade association is a revolving door of members and it needs a constant supply of fresh members to continue to exist, like NLA.

---

Not sure what the communication gap is here, but I'll try it again. The NLA and state associations are a resource for information for people that are getting into the business. To help people that have made a decision to enter the industry do it in a legal and ethical fashion. Not to help people get in, to help people getting in do it right. There's a difference there, I know you can find it.

I think you'll find the natives fundamentally friendly unless you're going way down to near the Tug River (Hatfield and McCoy territory), are clean-shaven and work for the Federal government (regarded as an occupying foreign power in them thar' parts). As for Smith, Wesson and Winchester, you'd probably do better with your friends Pabst and Bud.

quote:

---

Originally posted by AAA/GOT:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wade Randolph:

quote:

---

I too will be leaving soon. I'm off to the coal country of West Virginia for a few days on my ATV. If I can, I'll respond before I go, but it's that likely you won't hear from me until next week.

---

Matt watch out for those cro-magnum types with the banjos.

---

Don't worry about me Wade, I'm going with a few men from my riding club. I'll also bring my other buddies. You know, Smith, Wesson and Winchester. I squeal for no one!

---