The Limos.com Forum Has Moved!!!

WOW is all I can think of when I look around in here and... HE's EVERYWHERE! at war and proud of it - looking for the next fight -

I not looking for one, but feel the need to rebutt some of the issues and see if there is some common ground to lay a framework for reasonable discussion. Leave the attitudes at the door and come in and share ideas of what to go forward with - rather than how did we get here and who should we go after and have a fight with.

The differences with taxis, limos & sedans: local, state & federal regulation are all a result of 80 or more years of regulations - during which time there has been a presence at those lawmaking tables of the taxis. In the scheme, pre-arranged or limo has only gotten legs in the legislative arena for maybe a generous 20 years. I'd say the average non north-eastern Association age is less than 15 years - if there is even a group at all that pays attention.

And therein lies the problem that I see glaringly. No one is paying attention. No one gives a flying - about how the regulations where they operate affect them. And they do not realize how they can - as a group of like minded businesspeople - affect the changes they can get agreement on.

The problem is that no one has time because they are busy running their businesses. It's a gigantic catch 22 -

Others,like our esteemed gunny, are blazing the trail of investigation and has the knowledge of the entire combined limos.com forum readers.

There's a spectrum of laws from none to archaic that regulate our industry through the USA.

Blaming the concept of Industry Associations and assuming payola at every turn and pitting big vs small operators would be the topics that I'd like to leave at the door in this thread please.

States that have acheived success through their Association should be in here not to be attacked, but to be joined in their collective successes in controlling their own agenda with regards to how they are regulated.

It's a shame to me that such a valuable forum to the Industry can be hijacked. Kind of like a microcosm of the law thing... it only takes involvement to affect change.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:

quote:

Originally posted by gunny:

"The More Laws A State Has, The More Corrupt The State"

Don't ever argue with an idiot....
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

I'm sorry, my bust, I just assumed you would know where I pulled this reworded quote from. Guess you're not a history buff:

"The more corrupt the State, the more numerous the laws" Tacitus

This I'm sure you will understand, you waste of oxygen:

quote:

Originally posted by gunny:

"The More Laws A State Has, The More Corrupt The State"

Don't ever argue with an idiot....
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

quote:

Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
The TLPA is honest in its mission-they represent the large taxi fleet owners. They make no bones about it.

Agreed, the cabbies have their shit together & are unified. The NLA can't take a piss on the national level without clearance from the Taxi Barons.

Glenn is just another member of the corrupt NLA anti-trade cartel. Consumers who believe that the open market system benefits them in receipt of higher service through competition should boycott the businesses of Cartel Members such as Glenn's.

"The More Laws A State Has, The More Corrupt The State"

In Gunny's case Scotty denied him assistance because of the Florida Directors of the NLA. The TLPA is honest in its mission-they represent the large taxi fleet owners. They make no bones about it. In many jurisdictions the fix has long been in place to deny operators their permits and in general promote restraint of trade. The NLA has backed restrictive regulations in certain markets for years. I didn't just beat the City in the 1980's-I beat the NLA founder and the NLA too.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:

It's always an amazing experience visiting this site and seeing the proliferation of posts by the resident expert.

"Thank You Glenn, you should visit more often & maybe you'll learn something "

Railing against the few in the NLA and questioning their credentials to "speak for the Industry",


"Not Credentials but "Integrity". You ever hear of it? I doubt if you have any ".



while badmoouthing against any and all of the intitiatives of the NLA.


"Can you name one initiative that the NLA has initiated by its lonesome? And I've posted backing the TLPA/NLA initiative of amending the RIDE Act & even hesitantly support the thru-ticketing intiative because of the NLA's motives. So you're talking through your ass"



If it's NLA it must be baaaad.

Why?

Because the annual car and fleet "count" has come out and now there are numbers to support the Gunny's position that there is less than 20% overall Industry membership in the largest Trade Association for limousine operators.


"The NLA lies about its "paid" membership & it's membership lies about actual fleet sizes. Just that "Integrity" thing that you again lack so would not understand. 15-20% membership (maybe even lower) does not represent the Industry. Sorry, Pal"


To paraphrase, the few are leading the sheep to slaughter or some such dribble.... it's a little hard to keep up with his numerous rantings,


"Slow reader?"


but a visit to the FITA site will definitely "clarify" his positions. Please don't miss the page where he knocks operators for fuel surcharge fees - that one's a hoot.


"Yeah, warning consumers not to pay fuel surcharges that exceed the total fuel usage is real funny. Bet getting the truth out to the Consumer pisses off thieves like yourself enjoying ripping off the consumer in more ways than one. Fuel surcharges is a supplement"


And a glaring statement of the total cluelessness of anyone trying to make a living in this business. The tunnel vision goggles of the Tampa fight prevent any vision of the business outside the area altho the claim is to have previously run an operation in a major metro area.


"Not a claim, a fact. Check page 41 Wheels of Gold. I'm the Marine Recruiter. Of course I will not compare Long Island or NYC to trendy Richmond & its 13(?) NLA Members" you're a real f**king pro"


And what exactly is a Florida Licensed Seller of Travel (bonded of course) ?????
Sounds like a travel agent to me.


"And what F***king function are these "limo brokers" providing when they arrange transfers? How about operators farming out transfers. Folks that arrange their transfers & tours with me at least know if I screw up, they miss a flight & incur losses because of my failure to perform as contracted, that either (a) I make good on the losses or (b) they can file a claim against me with the Florida Dept of Consumer Services. Hell of a lot more protection then any NLA Limo Service Offers"


Take the skim and let someone else do the heavy lifting, i.e. provide the vehicles and service and pay the BIG money for expenses and licensing.


"That's why Gunny's is listed on the DOT site (safersys.org) & Port Canaveral VFH listing Jerky Boy"


Ok I'm done with the insults

"I'm not . Again, another Lackey comes aboard and cannot mount any meaningful attack & substantiate any crap their mouths spew forth. You're pathetic"


- well maybe not - but I gotta throw in extremely large kudos to the man Gunny for taking on a regulatory fight and it's looks like he's gaining the edge with the suspension of Mr. Cox. Congratulations Mr. Kozak well done.


"I just advised others who sought me out as is the normal routine for the past couple of years (in & out of state) These individuals took the bull by the horn & went after this corrupt agency located in the backyard of both an NLA & TLPA (Limo Div) Director. Too bad they don't have the guts to fight. But wait, that may be bad for their business. The only time I've read a transcript of Herring being in front of the commission was to beg them to be allowed to run a van under a limo classification"


But before your head explodes think about this. By doing what you've done, you've become something that you deplore... or at least infer in your rants about the NLA.

You've become the administrator of a SMALL "alliance" of people that have decided to make a change for the better in this Industry.


"Important thing is I'm basing my actions on "Consumer Protection" and "Small Operators Rights" from the lousy Florida NLA & TLPA Thieves "


For you to say you are NOT just like any other association working for the betterment of the Industry is hypocritical.


"Other associations work for the betterment of their wallets at the expense of market entrants & the consumer"


And that's the major problem I have every time I see your posts against others who are doing the same thing.


"Sorry, I don't read "Stupid""


Something to think about. Re-read the original post above for more on that subject.

And to reiterate - heartfelt congratulations on the results to date in your quest. It takes people like you who care enough to get involved - it's a shame that it's less than 20% of the overall Industry who have made the realization that Association membership on a Local and National level is the way to get things done.


"The worst nightmare for local & national associations would be for every single operator to join, get involved & assert themslves. If I had one wish, it would be for that to happen"


But then again, looking around at some of the yahoos, er... as Deano sez - sharecroppers that infiltrate the Industry, it's probably just as well that they aren't members.


"Just as many shitheads flying the NLA logo & backing corrupt officials. But that doesn't count in your book as apples do not fall far from the tree. Someone like you would give Bin Laden a ride if it turned a profit "


I doubt they'd have the sense to take advantage of the educational opportunities that an association could provide to raise their level of competence.


"If competence is measured by the likes of the snafus I've witnessed by NLA Leaders, they're not missing much. The fact that there are 3, I repeat 3 NLA Directors based in Florida & the mess this State is in is enough proof of the competence level of the NLA Leadership"


I just hate to think it's the 80% non membership that ARE sharecropper limo.


"80% have better things to do than finance the endeavors of a few crooks"


That's a scary thought....


"Yes, the newspapers are filled of horror stories committed by non-NLA members"


"Bottom line for all reading this, if you don't belong to the NLA, you're nothing but a bunch of scumbags as only the cream of the crop sends a donation into the NLA according to this moron. This is to include the 400+ in Orlando who don't fly the NLA logo (based on NLA Ride listing to Orlando VFH listing). Again, another loser who can't address the issues I raise head on. No mention of FITA seeking to have the laws enforced for the 2009 Super Bowl (which for past SBs NLA members & Local Association Leadership violated) or FITA's goals of taking away from Florida based TLPA & NLA Directors their beloved local protectionist in exchange for State control to ensure the safety of all & a business environment conducive to business success & free from the influences of the few association crooks padding politicos wallets"

Later Beer Commercial AKA Glenn Stafford "Love Limousines" Richmond Va
And Thanks, People As Yourself Just Validates My Positions & Postings

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gunny,

Gunny Chronicles Part Deux - continued below - but I felt the need to reiterate the basic premise of this thread so the original is copied for reference.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Gelakeiwicz:
WOW is all I can think of when I look around in here and... HE's EVERYWHERE! at war and proud of it - looking for the next fight -

I not looking for one, but feel the need to rebutt some of the issues and see if there is some common ground to lay a framework for reasonable discussion. Leave the attitudes at the door and come in and share ideas of what to go forward with - rather than how did we get here and who should we go after and have a fight with.

The differences with taxis, limos & sedans: local, state & federal regulation are all a result of 80 or more years of regulations - during which time there has been a presence at those lawmaking tables of the taxis. In the scheme, pre-arranged or limo has only gotten legs in the legislative arena for maybe a generous 20 years. I'd say the average non north-eastern Association age is less than 15 years - if there is even a group at all that pays attention.

And therein lies the problem that I see glaringly. No one is paying attention. No one gives a flying - about how the regulations where they operate affect them. And they do not realize how they can - as a group of like minded businesspeople - affect the changes they can get agreement on.

The problem is that no one has time because they are busy running their businesses. It's a gigantic catch 22 -

Others,like our esteemed gunny, are blazing the trail of investigation and has the knowledge of the entire combined limos.com forum readers.

There's a spectrum of laws from none to archaic that regulate our industry through the USA.

Blaming the concept of Industry Associations and assuming payola at every turn and pitting big vs small operators would be the topics that I'd like to leave at the door in this thread please.

States that have acheived success through their Association should be in here not to be attacked, but to be joined in their collective successes in controlling their own agenda with regards to how they are regulated.

It's a shame to me that such a valuable forum to the Industry can be hijacked. Kind of like a microcosm of the law thing... it only takes involvement to affect change.

It's always an amazing experience visiting this site and seeing the proliferation of posts by the resident expert. Railing against the few in the NLA and questioning their credentials to "speak for the Industry", while badmoouthing against any and all of the intitiatives of the NLA.
If it's NLA it must be baaaad.

Why?

Because the annual car and fleet "count" has come out and now there are numbers to support the Gunny's position that there is less than 20% overall Industry membership in the largest Trade Association for limousine operators. To paraphrase, the few are leading the sheep to slaughter or some such dribble.... it's a little hard to keep up with his numerous rantings, but a visit to the FITA site will definitely "clarify" his positions. Please don't miss the page where he knocks operators for fuel surcharge fees - that one's a hoot.

And a glaring statement of the total cluelessness of anyone trying to make a living in this business. The tunnel vision goggles of the Tampa fight prevent any vision of the business outside the area altho the claim is to have previously run an operation in a major metro area.

And what exactly is a Florida Licensed Seller of Travel (bonded of course) ?????
Sounds like a travel agent to me.
Take the skim and let someone else do the heavy lifting, i.e. provide the vehicles and service and pay the BIG money for expenses and licensing.

Ok I'm done with the insults - well maybe not - but I gotta throw in extremely large kudos to the man Gunny for taking on a regulatory fight and it's looks like he's gaining the edge with the suspension of Mr. Cox. Congratulations Mr. Kozak well done. But before your head explodes think about this. By doing what you've done, you've become something that you deplore... or at least infer in your rants about the NLA.

You've become the administrator of a SMALL "alliance" of people that have decided to make a change for the better in this Industry.

For you to say you are NOT just like any other association working for the betterment of the Industry is hypocritical. And that's the major problem I have every time I see your posts against others who are doing the same thing. Something to think about. Re-read the original post above for more on that subject.

And to reiterate - heartfelt congratulations on the results to date in your quest. It takes people like you who care enough to get involved - it's a shame that it's less than 20% of the overall Industry who have made the realization that Association membership on a Local and National level is the way to get things done.

But then again, looking around at some of the yahoos, er... as Deano sez - sharecroppers that infiltrate the Industry, it's probably just as well that they aren't members. I doubt they'd have the sense to take advantage of the educational opportunities that an association could provide to raise their level of competence.

I just hate to think it's the 80% non membership that ARE sharecropper limo.
That's a scary thought....

Check out the Unified Carrier Registration Act of 2005 to see the future.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Dean Schuler,

oooo. Iliked that analogy by Gunny.


In my eyes too much regulation is BAD regulation.

Florida is a mess!!!

The biggest difference between the trucking industry & the small motor coach passenger transportation industry:

Truckers worked like hell to deregulate & limit local regulatory agencies & case law is chock full of this industry taking regulators to the woodshed.

The small motor coach industry including limos & cabs beg for more regulation and want local regulators to micro-manage the industry.

Guess it just shows who the adults are & who needs to be baby sitted.

Shad: No argument with what you are saying about Trucking being hard work but basicly the rules of the business are the same and you are moving a product with a Motor Vehicle. That was my point.

David, This aint trucking. And if it was you wouldn't like it much. On demand freight has over a generation made the trucking industry as a whole a misserable and dangerous place to work. If you think life as we you know it now driving people is close to what an average truck goes through you have never driven 500 miles then had to unload 20 tons of freight before you can lay you head down most likely without a hotmeal. Apples is Apples and oranges are oranges.

Sorry Tony but the truth is the truth. Explode if you wish.

If I hear that again I may explode...

Taxi Cab, Limousine, Luxury Sedan, Motor Coach, School Bus what ever you want to call the mode, we are all in reality just a trucking company. Some haul freight, some haul people. Seems the Truckers have it altogether why can't we do the same.

We need a Jimmy Hoffa runing the show.

Could someone please decipher what the good Doctor's ramblings are about?

Doc I was instrumental in writing our local Baton Rouge regulations which are in a nutshell no regulations. You file your insurance showing you have insurance and pay an inspection fee. Everyone that can afford insurance should be allowed to compete and the consumer wins. This is the way it should be.

quote:

Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
Doc I have seen first hand how goverment agencies can get totally out of control over restrictive transportation laws. In New Orleans the taxicab bureau used to send officers out in the field looking for "unlawful" companies. These were typically companies from out of town who were bringing their clients to eat, party and do business in the City of New Orleans. The taxicab bureau officers would arrest, handcuff and bring the drivers to jail leaving their clients stranded. These companies were totally legitimate companies located in other municipal areas. The good ole' boy network in New Orleans had the laws so restricted that anyone else but the same old group could not get a license. These Gestapo officers even wore fatigues, combat boots and 9mm pistols. They were also commissioned officers in New Orleans which ment they had arrest powers just like a city policeman. This went on for over 20 years until the new mayor was elected.

Sounds like the New York deal I read about over the years. Great responses by all below. Thanks for some civility. I gotcher A1 sauce right here gunny !

I guess I question where the state level representatives - delegates and senators - are in these situations. I understand it's a local issue, but the delegate is districted to be local and serve a constituency. They have connections with all of the locals and are they working on your sides in these battles? And who are the others in the committees and do you have a friend from that district? And to me that is where you need an "association" to help coordinate as well as educate. But getting an actual group of various operators to sit in the same room and discuss a common goal?

I don't have the answers. I think I can see the barricades. I know what sort of works for me - regularly talking with my elected representatives so that they at least know my name -

Getting legislative action to make changes is a Herculian effort that once it starts, never seems to end. But we have businesses to run remember? So which is it?


I see the greatest problem in the markets with zero regulation. Pro active operators could concievably self regulate with a lawmaking process. There have been so many examples of these battles around the USA, and yet there are still developing limousine markets that are not regulated. What are these people thinking?

I would much more want to be at the task force table discussing regulatory options, than have it done to me by whoever else is there without me.

And if I can have my own table and no one else has a concern even better. That's the ideal law. One that creates minimal opposition.... or has come from compromise that can be lived with on all sides.

But then when it's debated, written and passed - somebody has to keep track of it to make sure no one else decides to mess with it without approvals.

Now if you just have one guy doing all this and he's not there anymore, is there an organization in place that can continue? Everyone in the limo business or any businessshould ask ourselves this question. It can be asked in the legislative area also.

It's great to have an outstanding individual with the motivation to gain the knowledge to ascertain the solution. There needs to be some organization of people and recruits to carry on.

I just believe an association is the answer. Is yours bad? Get a new one or hijack yours back. Without involvement in associations you won't get it back and your clout meter resets to zero. (you then get to re-invest in the struggle on your own) Bashing the associations because of the deadbeat member weakens rather than stregnthens the whole in my opinion when there is a bigger picture to address for a motivated group.

How do you motivate a limo guy?

Tell him


"I GOT CASH"

regards

And we still have a few established companies pushing bogus laws to restrict the number of Special Events permits issued, restricting the number of sedan permits issued and other various and sundry entitlement issues. New applicants still don't have much of a chance to obtain permits at the infamous transportation hearings. Why bother trying to be a worldclass livery when you can tilt the table in your favor ? The consumer suffers when a market is closed.